Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality: "Come Swing with Me" (1961)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Dec 8, 2010.

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  1. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Emil Richards would be my guess also. He was the vibraphonist in the small group which Sinatra took with him on his world tour a year later (e.g. SINATRA AND SEXTET: LIVE IN PARIS).
     
    Bob F, Nov 5, 2011
    #51
  2. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    None that I can identify as such. There are a number of color shots of Sinatra similar to the front album cover, such as these from inside the CD booklet, but none include the orchestra (and no guarantee they are from one of these actual sessions):

    Come-Swing-CD-booklet.jpg ​

    One such photo is being used for the cover of the upcoming Capitol/Reprise CD, BEST OF THE BEST. (See [post=6951146]this post[/post].)
     
    Bob F, Nov 5, 2011
    #52
  3. hodgo

    hodgo Tea Making Gort (Yorkshire Branch) Staff

    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    I just played the 1984 Alan Dell vinyl today and I think it sounds lovely much better than the CD from the UK 21 disc set.
     
    hodgo, Nov 5, 2011
    #53
  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    [​IMG]

    The original cover shot shows a Telefunken/AKG 250 or 251. Although we can't say definitively that it was Sinatra's vocal mic, it's certainly possible that for the second Capitol album in a row, the U47 was not used to capture the vocal.

    Lots of "maybes" in there, though!

    Matt

    PS - the "Capitol Scorecard" has been updated to include this title.

    PSPS - Notice that the talkback speaker was expertly airbrushed out under Frank's right arm. (Compare to the version bob f posted two posts back.)
     
    MLutthans, Nov 5, 2011
    #54
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  5. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Nice work there, Matt. Especially, on the simultaneous playing of the vocals leading up to the clam/intercut: it reminds me of the kind of double-track Lennon vocal you might hear on With The Beatles!

    I'm surprised that Walsh & co. didn't catch the clam when preparing the 3 CD Capitol set, given the care that went into the tracks on that set.
     
    rangerjohn, Nov 6, 2011
    #55
  6. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Its self-serving because I'll never own a D2 copy, but I'm very happy with the MoFi version. Matt's remark here is an eloquent justification for the brightness of this pressing:

    "The MFSL? Yes, it’s a little bright, but those brass parts proclaim their brassiness from the high places...."

    I also like having a mono version (if only a summed version of the MoFi) because I sometimes find that the ping-pong stereo effect detracts from the vocals.
     
    rangerjohn, Nov 6, 2011
    #56
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  7. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I'm sure they made more than one copy from the D2. ;) You might find a nice one...

    I have no idea if the D2 cut is 'the' version - only that is it better as a whole than the other coipes/releases I've heard. There may be better ones out there.

    It's not only the brightness on the brass + the overall sound being a bit too revised that bothers me about the Mobile Fidelity version - its what the Eq does to the general tone, especially on Frank. His vocal tone doesn't sound natural enough to my ears. There's too much emphasis on the "top", which doesn't sound particularly bad here but sounds wrong to my ears, if that makes any sense. You can do much worse than the Mobile Fidelity version, but in my opinion with some digging you might be able to do better too.
     
    MMM, Nov 6, 2011
    #57
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  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    I can't help but wonder if the vocal tone -- I call it "tubby" -- is the result of:

    •Using the AKG mic, as opposed to the U47 we know and love
    •Being in a different position vis a vis the band and/or any walls/reflectors
    •Having a cold or something

    (Never mind that his voice was kinda shot, likely the result of recording for Reprise on the same dates as he was recording for Capitol.)

    That "tubbiness" is mildly apparent on Nice 'n' Easy to my ears, too, but here it's more pronounced.

    ...and the vocal tone is largely what bothers me on the Walsh version of the album at hand.

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Nov 6, 2011
    #58
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  9. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I'd have to check back to be sure, but I don't remember much (if any) of the "tubbiness" on the remixes from this album on THE CAPITOL YEARS.
     
    MMM, Nov 6, 2011
    #59
  10. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    You know, I didn't even think to post a sample from there. I'll get that loaded later tonight for comparison.

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Nov 6, 2011
    #60
  11. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    They're a lot better overall to my ears than the tracks from the actual Walsh of the album.
     
    MMM, Nov 6, 2011
    #61
  12. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    I've added a clip (here) comparing the MFSL, Furmanek/Walsh remix, and Walsh remix, plus some waveforms for the waveform crowd.

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Nov 7, 2011
    #62
  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    ^^^^^Continuing the monologue:

    We had no original stereo pressings in the sample pool. I've added a clip here from an early D3 pressing.

    To my ears, it's like my choice of spouse: I'm glad that I married who I did, even though at times she's a hair brighter than might be ideal. Better that way than just-plain dull, right? The three original Capitol stereo LP copies now sampled all have a dullness to them. The MFSL LP is about 5% too bright, but I'll take it, as overall, I really like it....it's just THIS MUCH (fingers pinched together almost) too bright.

    Have a listen; let me know what you think.

    EDIT: I have also added a clip from the "20 Golden Greats" CD (thanks, Sean Keane), at the very bottom of this page: http://web.me.com/mlutthans/MitchMiller/1961_-_Come_Swing_with_Me!5.html

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Mar 17, 2012
    #63
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  14. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Thanks, Matt.

    Overall, I've been pretty happy with a transfer of the MoFi LP (although I often hit the mono button....).

    Glad to hear I don't have to seek out a better source.
     
    rangerjohn, Mar 17, 2012
    #64
  15. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Agreed, plus: whatever they used/did for that "20 Golden Greats" CD shows that there is room for vast improvement over the three released digital versions of this album, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Mar 17, 2012
    #65
  16. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Hey gang!

    Just got my mittens on a sweet, clean MONO copy of this baby. And, all I can say after some 40 years of listening to the "ping pong game" is to quote your old pal Joey and say "WOWIE! WOW! WOW! WOW!"

    What has been discussed here prior is completely true...the pressure is off as far as stereophonic gimmicks and the listener is treated to what might well be the finest "fold-down" monaural recording I've ever heard.

    I made sure to listen for those vibes Matt loves so much. They are rather well-placed and not lost at all in the mono mix.

    In short...I love it!:love:
     
    paulmock, Jul 2, 2012
    #66
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  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Yep, I view the mono version of this in very much the same way as I view the mono versions of the first two Beatles albums. There's more detail (I would argue WAY more detail) in the stereo versions, but when you just want to focus on the music, the mono is very rewarding, sans distractions.

    Now, having said that.....since the mono appears to be a fold-down, in theory one's goal could be to find "the version" (be it stereo or mono) with the best tone, and if you have a mono button, a stereo version can become your "go to" mono version!

    Matt

    PS - you may notice that every one of my web pages is temporarily gone. That's because the server I was using closed up shop on Saturday night. I have everything saved on a hard drive, and the pages will all be back soon, once I decide where I want to house them.
     
    MLutthans, Jul 2, 2012
    #67
  18. Jayson Wall

    Jayson Wall Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I do enjoy my D2#1/D1 Mono 9-o'clock pressing of this album more than the stereo :edthumbs:
     
    Jayson Wall, Jul 2, 2012
    #68
  19. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    I remember our discussion on this earlier here, Jayson. Everything you said about the mono verison is true. I can't believe it took me so long to "see the light" and just buy the damn LP. I know, I know..."old dogs, etc. ":D
     
    paulmock, Jul 3, 2012
    #69
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  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Some discussion (starting around here) of the mono mix and potential fold down situation came up in the similarly-titled SWING ALONG WITH ME thread, and I don't want to litter that thread with stuff about COME SWING WITH ME, so I've posted some stuff about the mono mix of THIS album (most of that stuff lifted from my old Sinatra site) here: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1961_-_Come_Swing_with_Me!_2.html (Quicktime not required.)

    Let's discuss! :)

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Jan 26, 2013
    #70
  21. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Thanks Matt. I'd almost forgotten how fascinating your analysis of the "moving piano" was. Can't wait to read more.
     
    rangerjohn, Jan 26, 2013
    #71
  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Yeah, there's some odd (fun?) stuff that we'll get to down the road. In the meantime, boy.....some of those mono pressings (here) have really poor tone quality!
     
    MLutthans, Jan 26, 2013
    #72
  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    MLutthans, Feb 4, 2013
    #73
  24. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il

    Thanks for giving us more options to hew on Matt. I'm still liking the Dell and MFSL, but will keep comparing.

    P.S. I'd forgotten about the "Bruno Anthony" reference. Hilarious!
     
    rangerjohn, Feb 4, 2013
    #74
  25. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    I always try to give my role models their props!
     
    MLutthans, Feb 4, 2013
    #75
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