Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality: "Come Swing with Me" (1961)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Dec 8, 2010.

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  1. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Now did you miss this 1st time around?
     
  2. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I was vaguely aware of it, but not through my own discovery. @apileocole pointed it out on the first go-round (10 years ago):
    ....and @motionoftheocean brought it up in 2015.
     
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  3. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    OK...You are off the hook! :magoo: BTW, it spooks the ever luvin' hell outta me to be able to casually go back in time and find these things so effortlessly. It scares me to read things I wrote 10 - 15 years ago!!!!
     
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  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    A few of us have been doing some blind listening of several different masterings, and I have not gone through and tallied things for that exercise yet, but I can share one little nugget of data from my own (not other people's) blind listening.

    The masterings compared were:
    •Original mono USA "D" LP
    •Original UK mono LP
    •Original USA D stereo LP
    •1970s USA SM abridged stereo LP cut on a Neumann lathe
    •1983 MFSL stereo LP
    •1984 Dell stereo LPs in three variants: UK; Dutch DMM; Australian
    •1991 Walsh-remixed stereo CD
    •1998 UK "Dell" stereo CD
    •2016 HD stereo download
    •2016 stereo LP

    On the four tracks we compared (Day by Day, Sentimental Journey, On the Sunny Side of the Street, Don't Take Your Love from Me), I had one commercially-released mastering that I blindly chose (in randomized order, all level-matched) as "top choice" on three of the four songs: The 1984 UK "Dell" LP, which I had never played prior to this exercise (so I'm glad that I finally broke down and bought a copy a few years ago). On the song where it was not an absolute "top choice," I did comment that it was a "very, very close second," so that speaks very well of that release overall.

    Much more to follow as time allows, including comments on the 1983 MFSL release (and my old thoughts on that version were reinforced by the new blind listening -- so that's good).

    (Special thanks to @rangerjohn, @MMM, @AxeD for sharing files.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
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  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Just stumbled upon this on Ebay:
    Screenshot_20210706-154651~2.jpg Screenshot_20210706-154738~2.jpg Screenshot_20210706-154758~2.jpg Screenshot_20210706-154818~2.jpg Screenshot_20210706-154831~2.jpg
    That's a Japanese mid-70s 7.5 IPS quarter-track stereo reel. Interesting! (Very possibly mediocre, but still interesting.)

    Note that side one and side two are reversed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
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  6. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored

  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    They are asking $250. "It ain't me, babe!" :laugh:
     
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  8. AL01

    AL01 Eh?

    Location:
    Texas
    Somewhat unrelated, but I want to thank you for your excellent service.

    Do intend on doing more comparisons for some of Sinatra's Reprise records, (I.E.Francis Albert and Jobim?)

    If so, sign me up! I would love to help in any way possible, (though I don't own too many records, but the ones I own are all early pressings.)
     
  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Thanks!

    Next in line: The Concert Sinatra.
     
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  10. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Now...if it were "For Only the Lonely"......:p
     
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  11. jtaylor

    jtaylor Senior Member

    Location:
    RVA
    As each of us has been known to do from time to time, I fell down the ol' Curly Walter rabbit hole today. Based on the "considerable" new evidence below, my guess is that the fellow with the pipe behind FS is none other than Curly Walter, likely serving as Cavanaugh's #2 during these sessions.
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Do we know who engineered this title? Hugh Davies? John Kraus?
     
  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
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  14. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I have a new conclusions/recommendations page finished here. There are lots of caveats/buts/disqualifications going on with this title, so after we toss those options out, I am goign with the 1984 UK "Dell" LP as my recommended choice. You can read about "why" on the site. Here is a montage of clips from the 1984 UK LP, for the curious: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1961_-_Come_Swing_with_Me!_4_files/CSWMUK84Montage.wav

    Also, "for the record," I still think that the 1983 MFSL LP is the best version *IF* (and only if) you are willing to spend a little time tweaking its EQ, as it's a little bright on top. Aside from that, it's gorgeous. (We all have tone controls.....right????) For the non-tweakers, I think the '84 UK LP is tops.

    Also, we did another "blind listening" group on this title, although the group was smaller (perhaps due to summer distractions). The results, shown fully to-scale, were:

    Screen shot 2021-08-09 at 12.34.05 AM.png

    The "D-I-Y tweak" that scored so highly (far right) is EQd (not "raw transferred") MFSL tracks -- and those don't really count! (I was just curious to see how they'd score.)

    I more-or-less agree with the group results here, except I was no fan of the USA "D" stereo pressings (and yes, I own two of them). I definitely agree that the USA mono LP was the worst of the bunch! (The "BUTS" are explained on the site, by the way.)

    The 1970s/1980s SM-series LP scored in the middle of the pack in terms of sound quality, but is not shown, because it is missing two tracks.

    Thanks to everybody who contributed clips! Lots of those to hear on the first two pages, mono and stereo.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  15. bozburn

    bozburn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, US
    I’m surprised the Walsh CD is as far to the left as it is. I’ve always enjoyed mine but I’ll have to dig out my Dell LP for another listen!
     
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  16. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored

    Man. The only versions I own and had ever heard are all on the bottom.
     
  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

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  18. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    I just finished spinning the "Dell" UK LP and found it very enjoyable, but I think the beloved mallets of which you speak @MLutthans are more prevalent on the MoFi LP. Also, IMHO Ye doth protest too much re: the mono LP. It completely takes away the stereo "ping-pong" pressure of the recording the way that the mono The Concert Sinatra takes away all of the sound quality hype pressured upon that that album. Just sayin'.
     
  19. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Do you like them and enjoy them? Then that is all that matters.
     
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  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Agreed on the mallets. The MFSL really highlights those beautifully. Also, on the mono thing, I have often advocated for pushing the mono button on this title. It's a very different experience, with fewer distractions! (Personally, I like the stereo craziness, but that's just me!)

    The MFSL is definitely unique, and I mean that in the good way!
     
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Agreed. Enjoy the music!
     
  22. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    I just played Billy's "Big Fat Brass" before the UK "Come Swing..." and it was a delightful experience. I am happy.
     
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  23. StingRay5

    StingRay5 Important Impresario

    Location:
    California
    Hmm. I have the latest 24/96 download from HDtracks.com. While there is definitely more energy in the right channel, it seems more like a result of the way it's mixed than anything else. Frank's vocal is centered fine. But as you (@MLutthans) mention on page 2 on your site, the drums, bass, and horns are panned hard right, leaving only the woodwinds on the left. If I cut the right channel by 3 dB, the instrumental balance is better, but Frank distinctly shifts a bit to the left. I verified this by soloing the tracks: with the -3 dB adjustment, Frank is definitely quieter in the right channel than the left.

    And yet, with no adjustments and Frank's vocal centered nicely, the woodwinds on the left do seem weaker than in your other samples. Strange.

    Btw, the link for your 1961 reel-to-reel stereo tape doesn't work.
     
  24. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored


    Ha. Not as much as I wish I did. It’s the odd man out for me in terms of Sinatra’s Capitol albums.
     
  25. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Since mono was brought up.....

    way back 10+ years ago, the question was address regarding: Is the mono version a fold-down or not? Steve said that it's not a fold-down, and I have no reason to doubt that, but there are always two things that kind of stick in my craw:

    1.) There's that piano overdub (or superimposition or fly-in or whatever it is) on "Yes, Indeed" that is on the original stereo mix, NOT on the 3-track tape, and ON the mono mix, so....doesn't that mean that AT LEAST that one song ("Yes, Indeed") has to be made from -- or folded down from -- the stereo mix? I can't think of any other explanation.

    2.) The better stereo masterings "play well" in mono, so I'm never shy about hitting the mono button on this title. That doesn't mean that the mono reels at Capitol are fold-downs, but regardless, you can get way more dynamic range from the better stereo masterings than you'll find on the full-on mono releases, even if it's not "correct" overall.

    I'll share one side-note from the "blind listening" group that convened for this album a month or two back. One of the choices I shared was the 1998 UK CD, which is stereo, and then -- just for a lark -- another choice was that same CD summed to mono. I thought I'd see if anybody would spot it. Lo and behold, the very next person to listen and chime in commented along the lines of, "Choice number 10 sounds like a fold-down." Good catch on that one! And in nearly no time at all! Can't fool those Sinatra listeners. :)
     
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