Sinatra Reprise question for MMM or anyone else

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by czeskleba, May 31, 2002.

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  1. John DeAngelis

    John DeAngelis Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY
    "So, unless one plays back carefully using an AME (Ampex Master Eq) device, the sound is going to be too bright and wonky."

    Could you explain what you mean by "wonky"?
     
  2. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Steve,

    Thanks for the info as to why it's a little agressive and "wonky" (love that term). Anyway, was this CD a remix? I remember meeting Gregg Geller (the Reprise reissue producer of thieir part of the EOTC series) at the Sinatra Hofstra conference in 1998 and asked him if all these CD's (released up until that point, which included "Swingin' Brass") were remixed, and he said no but didn't tell me specific titles. To my ears, the 20-Bit "Swingin' Brass" was one of them that wasn't remixed based on all the reverb sound on it. Or, was all that "bouncy" sounding reverb also applied to the three-tracks? - I hope not.

    Is there a better version out there Steve (CD or vinyl)?

    MMM
     
  3. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Wonky=something's wrong somewhere, but we can't put our finger (or ear) on what it is. In this case, it means, too compressed, too distorted, too much echo, too, etc.

    I doubt the CD was remixed, but that wonky echo is indeed right on the AME three-track.

    I have an AME unit, and the tape sounds ok on it, but it still has too much EQ, echo, compression (not to mention the distortion and overload caused by the AME system).

    I think the best version I ever heard was the MONO LP mix.
     
  4. John DeAngelis

    John DeAngelis Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I seem to remember Gregg Geller stating that the only Reprise EOTC remix was "The Concert Sinatra", but I'm not convinced that even that one really was remixed.
     
  5. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Most of these discs were remixed to my ears and the best of my knowledge.

    "Wonky" reverb on the 3-track - OH NO!!! Why did Bill Putnam do that!?! Why couldn't he leave the damned 3-track pure and put that junk on the mixdown? Does the mono version coming from the mono deck also have that reverb added too, or just the three-track?

    MMM
     
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Mono version has the reverb, BUT the mono tape was NAB not AME EQ, so that helps things (same deal as "Ring A Ding Ding")....

    Most Sinatra United three-tracks have the reverb on them. ALL do, except "Ring A Ding Ding", and "The Concert Sinatra" I think... I must say that some have a small amount only, and that is doubled when the mix is done, but other than the two above, none are dry.

    Just the way they did things at United back then!
     
  7. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Thanks Steve

    Yeah, I noticed that my mono "Ring-A -Ding-Ding!" LP (and the "Master In His Workshop" boot CD) doesn't have all of that "springy" reverb on Frank like the original stereo mix. However, my "R" prefix Radio Recorders LP sounds off pitch and horribly EQ'd. I haven't heard the "F" prefix Columbia mastered LP, but I hope it's better than this. It may be the best sounding version, I dunno - I have to find one in decent shape. I probably (stupidly) passed one up in my early days of looking for Sinatra vinyl, but I haven't seen one for sale in a while. Also, the 20-Bit "Ring" doesn't have that springy junk on Frank, nor does the box set. But they both sound don't sound good either, I guess partially due to not accurately undoing the "AME" on playback as you say Steve. "Ring-A-Ding-Ding" needs Steve desperately.

    Also, the 20-Bit "Swing Along With Me/Sinatra Swings" has very little reverb or echo on Frank in comparison to previous versions, so I guess they didn't load up the multitrack with "effects" on that one. It sounds remixed to me. It also has the proper mono take of "Granada", but in stereo (the box set also has a long version of "Granada", but it's a different take). Too much bass though.

    MMM
     
  8. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Steve, I recall in the "35mm" thread that you said the three-tracks of "You Brought a New Kind of Love To Me" had excellent sound. So I guess then "The Concert Sinatra" tracks recorded at those sessions also are in excellent sound on the three-tracks, even though the 35mm mag. tracks are supposedly gone. Do the three-tracks sound nearly as good as Raymond Pepe (I think that's his name) leads us to believe in the liner notes to "Concert Sinatra"?

    MMM
     
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    The three-tracks sound good, yes. Dry as a bone with big orchestra.

    Have not heard the remix though....
     
  10. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I gave the 20-Bit "Sinatra and Swingin' Brass" another listen recently. It's not too bad, and it's probably the best CD of it out there, but it could use some improvement. The bass is a bit overdone, occasionally spilling into the horns and leaving a bit of "honkiness" to the horns on a few tracks. Also, the top doesn't seem to be as extended as it should be.

    I've also been listening to the 20-Bit "Sinatra/Basie" - the "other" Neal Hefti album. It's probably the best CD out there, but it could be a lot better. It can be somewhat agressive sounding at times, noticeable when the band plays loud. It has a kind of a metallic sound to it. It could (and should) be a lot warmer. It also sound like it was not remixed, and they took the old stereo mix and added (to my ears) extra echo to it - I guess to fill in the "hole in the middle" of the stage. At least it's not filtered garbage. It is also better than the same tracks on the 20-CD box set. I haven't given an exhaustive listen to the "Sinatra/Basie" tracks on the box set, but I get the impression (but I would want to say for sure) that these tracks were noise reduced for the box. Listen to the solo piano intro to "Pennies From Heaven" (supposedly played by Bill Miller "Suntan Charlie" instead of Basie) - it sounds like there's some "noise pumping" which when sounding the way it does here, usually indicates the use of some type of noise reduction. On LP, I have the original Radio Recorders mastrered R9 prefix stereo LP, and the 60's press Columbia mastered F prefix mono LP (side 1 1A/side 2 1F) and FS prefix stereo LP (side 1 1D/side 2 1C). I have never heard the mono R prefix LP. It seems the best sounding one overall(and is much better than the CD's) is the 3-color label FS prefix stereo LP. It sounds a little "tinkered with" in what sounds like some boost on top (but not at all in a harsh way), and also doesn't have enough "crack" to the drums, but it is the one I turn to when I want to listen to this album and enjoy it. The original R9 prefix stereo LP sound a somewhat muffled and has a somewhat narrow width to the soundstage in comparison to the 60's FS pressing and even the CD. The F prefix mono LP is interesting as it has the best sounding bass of all. You can plainly hear every note being played by the bassist. The lower register of the horns is also more present tham any of the stereo versions I've heard, so it's worth picking up if you see a nice copy for sale. But the top isn't there that much, and the overall sound (aside from the bottom) isn't as realistic (IMO).

    MMM
     
  11. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Steve,

    Is the "Strangers In the Night" album another case of a use of a tube deck for some tracks and solid-state for the others. I'm not talking about the title track - that's a whole other thing. I mean the other 9 songs, which were engineered by Lee Herschberg. The second session of these two sounds better than the first overall. Was the second session all done on the tube Ampex 3-track? Was the first session all done on the solid-state four-track (using three of the four tracks)? I also noticed that "The Most Beautiful Girl In the World" sounds better IMO than the other tracks done on the first night (even though it's the last song on side 2 of the LP) - was it done on the tube deck? Or was everything done on the same deck and there are other reasons for what I'm hearing?

    MMM
     
  12. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Sorry to bother you with the last question Steve - I just read in another post that you have the flu and not feeling well. I would have held off with it until you felt better if I had known. Hopefully you'll feel better soon.

    MMM
     
  13. John Oteri

    John Oteri New Member In Memoriam

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    He's better. I'll get him!
     
  14. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    "Strangers In The Night"

    Well, (cough cough), I'm actually feeling better...

    The SONG was recorded on three tracks of a Scully four-track machine. Did you read Jimmie Bowen's book? Interesting...

    The rest of the stuff is totally four-track, and at United/Western, that meant solid state Scully.

    Now, in a "quick" version I mixed, all 9 songs sound pretty much the same, sonically. Other mixes I've heard aren't so kind to the material IMO.

    I think that mic placement had more to do with what you're hearing. Each of those songs has about 10 edits in them by the way...:eek:

    Unusual with Sinatra. But, far less than some of the later stuff.

    Does this help?
     
  15. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Wow,

    I always thought it was a three-track recording, even though it was 1966. What's on the fourth track, the organ? I always used to think that the difference in sound I hear, especially between the first and second session, just had to do with changes in sound that sometimes occur when an album is recorded over more than one session, such as things like mic placement as you say Steve. But after you told us about the tube/solid-state thing with "It Might As Well Be Swing" and "September Of My Years", I thought maybe that could have been why (at least in part) there were differences in the overall sound between the tracks recorded at the first and second session (at least as commerically released). I'm not surprised to hear that this album has songs that are edited more than usual. I've heard some of the outtakes and chatter and one part of the session that sticks out in my mind in the recording of "Downtown". During this song, which I think was the last song to be recorded, it seems like Frank wants to get it done in one take, or at least over with pretty quickly, as soon as he can get a performance he felt was acceptable. All of a sudden you hear Frank kind of scream out "intercut" - as you know Steve. Something about the way he blurts out "intercut" is pretty funny to me. Thanks again Steve. Good to hear you're feeling better.

    MMM
     
  16. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I'm feeling better, thanks.

    Frank screaming "Intercut" is indeed funny. I should have stated that most of the edits were music pickups, and didn't have much to do with Frank's vocal efforts!

    On the four track stuff, the band is on three tracks, rhythm section/organ & brass/reeds----OR (in the second session) the organ alone or combined with rhythm, etc. The music got miked differently not only between the two sessions, but between songs in the SAME session.

    Why I don't know. There were in a hurry to get this album out, so I don't know why they kept changing mics around.....

    Next time I have breakfast with Lee, I'll ask him!
     
  17. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Thanks Steve,

    Even though it was hurried along, the album (except for the title track) still seems very well recorded IMO. I guess if you're a good engineer like Lee Herschberg you can still get good results even if you're rushed a bit. I'd be great to hear your mix of it Steve, even if it is a quicky - probably sounds amazing.

    MMM
     
  18. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Hello Steve,

    Have you had breakfast with Lee Herschberg recently? Did you get a chance to ask him why the kept changing the mics around when he was recording the "Strangers In the Night" album (excepting the Eddie Brackett engineered title track, of course).
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Sorry, Lee is sipping highballs by the pool these days. Enjoying some peace and quiet.

    Lee usually drew diagrams of his mic setups and put them in the tape boxes when finished (most of the United/Western engineers did that).

    In the "Strangers" LP box there was nothing, so that's no help.
     
  20. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Wow, pictures of the mic setups! This reminds me of a few reproductions of pictures in Mark Lewisohn's "The Beatles Recording Sessions" book. Invaluable stuff.

    Steve, when you worked on the "Robin and the 7 Hoods" soundtrack, did any of those tapes come with this info? What differences (if any) were noted if you compared Lowell Frank's sheets and Lee Herschberg's sheets on miking these recordings for this album?
     
  21. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Martin,

    "Robin" was empty, diagram wise. Just some notes by Sonny Burke regarding intercuts, etc. I think a lot of stuff just fell out of the boxes over the years and the janitor swept them up into the dustbin of history.

    Oh well.
     
  22. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Damn the janitor!!!

    Thanks again Steve.


    I think I'm really backed up on going through this stuff. Next chance I get to really sit down and listen, I'll have to try to figure out which songs on the "September Of My Years" album were recorded on the tube deck and which are solid-state. I'm sure Arne and others are tired of waiting for me to make my guesses since I seem to be holding up the proceedings, so to speak.
     
  23. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Hello Steve,

    This past Sunday I listened to the "September Of My Years" album to see if I could figure out which songs come from the tube deck and which from the solid-state. To my ears it sounds like the following are solid-state: "How Old Am I?", "It Gets Lonely Early", "This Is All I Ask", "The Man In the Looking Glass", and "It Was a Very Good Year". The rest sound tube. After I listened (I didn't want to cheat and try to help myself) I looked it up and found that all the songs I listed comprise the entire April 22, 1965 date.

    So Steve, am I correct? Or am I wrong? Whenever you get a chance I'd (and others I hope) be interested to see your answer.
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    You are correct, sir!
     
  25. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Wow, that was fast. Thanks again Steve.
     
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