Sinatra / Reprise Sound Quality and General Discussion: "...Great Songs from Great Britain" (1962)*

The LONDON BY NIGHT intercut is about 32 seconds in length, running from about 1:42-2:14, covering "He's not alone for it seems somewhere up there stands an angel to keep her watch while each Londoner dreams." The intercut is, as previously noted, in the UK version; the Japanese version is unedited.

The 2014/2015 editions follow the Japanese release, being unedited.

 

Here's a great example of what I'm talking about, and thanks to @bferr1 for providing the UK mono LP clip:

ON THE CLIPS BELOW, PLEASE FOCUS ON THE WORD "GLOW" AT THE END OF THE CLIPS.

On "London by Night," the vocal track is more-or-less "clean" on the UK mono and stereo versions. Here's a clip from each, and pardon the fact that my UK stereo LP is not in great shape: https://app.box.com/s/y7pih6zomftgclgh7w39m1smjyes2rci

Now, here's where things get weird. On my Japanese stereo LP from 1985, there's a very odd, gritty affect to the vocal recording on "London by Night." At first, I thought maybe it was a problem with my playback, but it is not. It's that way on the LP on this track. Oddly, the current HD release (mirrored on the current LP release) has this same gritty sound on the vocal, and additionally, it has noise reduction so severely applied that the end of the word "glow" is clearly compromised and shortened. Here's a clip from the Japanese LP, followed by the same clip from the HD version: https://app.box.com/s/r500rvi3p08gyzharp0sl7gdo8ekk5nj

I'm not sure what's going on here, and there's plenty of this "trickery pokery" stuff (to quote John Lennon) going on with the new release.

 

One last pesky request for clips from the album for comparison purposes. If you can help out, please send a message my way.

I'd love to be able to add any of these less-common versions, if somebody can help out, please:

•German LP, as mentioned a earlier by @colormesinatra
•Netherlands LP
•Australian LP
•This re-titled Italian LP:

...or any others that may be floating around. Thanks!

 

I got to hear this tonight. I get what you are talking about now!

Gotta say, the opening of Farnon's arrangement sure sets a mood. Beautifully designed and executed, with that particular music (especially that lonely sounding clarinet) paired with the "She is watching through the poplars" line. Gorgeous.

 

Anybody else have a UK stereo original? Mine is a 3L/3L cut, and both sides are very "right heavy." To get the vocal centered, I had to drop the right channel by 3.4 dB. My Japanese stereo LP has no such problem.

 

Ever bring up some bright idea and wind up kind of regretting it?

A few weeks ago, in a private conversation here on the forum, I bought up the idea of how easy it would be to do a quickie comparison page for this album, since there are so few releases to compare. Boy, I could not have been more wrong regarding this being quick or easy! There are major differences on just about every track on this album, differences in edits, differences in tape sources, differences in balances -- never mind the differences in masterings! It's a real zoo.

THANKS TO @ArneW, @bferr1, @MMM, @Pieter Kozak, @rangerjohn, for being able to contribute clips that have added to the stew of my own copies.

To give you some idea of what I'm talking about, let's look at one little couplet from the end of track one, "The Very Thought of You." I have two UK mono transfers here. Listen to how different the sound is on "It's just the thought of you" here: https://app.box.com/s/hr9guz85adqci4xa2ciii48zsp0myvyu. It's very clean on the first one (-4M cut), but notice how messed up it is in the second version sampled (for which I have no runout info; sorry).

Then there's stereo. Hmmm....

I've assembled a clip that runs these four versions in order:
1.) My own 1985 Japanese LP
2.) My own UK -3L LP ("right heavy," as mentioned in an earlier post)
3.) The "suitcase" CD (with plenty of plate reverb added)
4.) The recent UMe version (from the LP in this case, but they all have the same characteristics)

Here's the set of stereo clips, in that order: https://app.box.com/s/w738br1r4d70f7mpv15ududjbldjw4or

Here's what strikes me:
1. The Japanese remix really stinks on this track, with overload distortion, limiting/compression, and a thick schmear of reverb.
2. The UK stereo mix is pretty good, and the source seems "clean," but this particular pressing, at least, is very right heavy.
3. The suitcase displays some obvious tape damage in the left channel between vocal phrases.
4. The UMe version -- which follows the edits used on the Japanese mix for this song, not the edits used on the original UK mix -- seems to be, as is the case for the release as a whole, cobbled together from a variety of sources, possibly to mask tape damage that was on the tapes used for the suitcase in 1993/1995. Note the little "pops" right at 0:53 and 0:58, possible imperfectly-executed (and digital?) splices between sources, and the odd goosing of the right channel at the end of the clip.

There are many other such things going on JUST ON THIS SONG. I'll attempt to log them all at some point. (Woot!?)

General questions/thoughts regarding the album:
•If there are different edits on the Japanese release, and it came out AFTER the UK release, which should be considered the "final and correct" version, I wonder? I think a case could be made either way.
•I'd love to know the story behind the "gritty" vocals (in terms of recording, not in terms of singing style) that keep cropping up. (We'll get to more on this later.)
•I'm curious as to which source tapes actually exist and where they have been stored over the years. It sure seems that different tapes and different mixes have been used for different releases over the years, yet there are some tracks from the UMe releases that are a couple of steps down the source-quality ladder. Strange.

 

I think that the recording is fantastic (recorded by Eric Tomlinson), but the mixes have (largely) not served the recording well, which brings up other questions: Were the original mono and stereo mixes made at CTS? At Pye? In the US? How about the mix that appeared on the Japanese LP? Which mix was on the Italian LP from 1965? Is that the same UK mix, or the mix that later appeared in Japan? Or a different mix? How about the German release of the mid-70s? I don't think the '62 mixes wer made in the USA, but that's just speculation, and the reason I suspect the was done in the UK (at Pye?) is that there is some heavy, dark-sounding compression added to the vocal, and I don't recall hearing that particular style of compression being added to the vocal track on USA Reprise mixes. One downside of the extreme vocal compression is that every little nuance of sound emanating from Sinatra's mouth is brought to the foreground, which is very unnatural and unflattering.

By the way, if you don't know the name Eric Tomlinson, you should take a few minutes to read his obituary: Eric Tomlinson, recording engineer - obituary

I'll highlight one paragraph from that link:

This plays right into a question I've had about "The Very Thought of You," specifically: Any chance there was a live-to-stereo mix made? The reason I wonder that is that on some versions the bass is centered, but on some, the bass is at the right. (We'll get to all this.) There's something odd going on there. (I realize that LPs are cut sometimes with a low-frequency blend function activated, moving all bass content to the center to aid tracking on the LP, but I'm referring to digital versions that have the bass in two different locations. Again: weird.)

 

Continuing with "The Very Thought of You," and the question of available sources, mixing styles, edits, and the "gritty voice" problem that I mentioned earlier, I'll present four brief stereo clips. (Thanks to @ArneW, @MMM, @rangerjohn for clips/help.)

•Clip #1: Audio link here. This is the 1985 Japanese LP. Notice that there is fuzz or grit on the vocal track here. Left/right are evenly balanced. On the very last bass pizzicato "pluck," you can make out the splice that is unique to the "Japanese edit," as the "pluck" is more of "kuh-kluck" on that last note. There's a little hiccup-y quality to it.
•Clip #2: Audio link here. This is the 1993 version, mastered by Lee Herschberg. I have referred to Lee's mastering style as "wiley" in the past, and I mean that as a compliment, because he pulls things off in such a way that it's really hard to tell exactly what he's doing, and I respect the level of creativity that I suspect goes into that. Remember how reverberant the suitcase clip was back in post #108? Same song, same mastering, but slathered in reverb in one clip, and quite dry in the other. Did you hear the "grit" in the vocal? Listen again to "the longing here for you." It's Grit City -- not unlike the vocal on the Japanese LP from clip #1. Also, there's the tell-tale splice on the last bass note at the end of the clip.
•Clip #3: Audio link here. This is the UMe HD download. Again, the grit is there, and the edit is there, indicating that it is following the Japanese edits, not the original UK edits. Additionally, listen to 1.) where the bass is located ; and 2.) how right-heavy the mix is overall -- but without the vocal being off-center. Odd. If you listen very carefully, you may note that the bass is centered at the very start of the clip (which may be from a new remix, since this is a cobbled-together version), then is on the right a couple of seconds later.
•Clip #4: Audio link here. This is the original UK stereo LP, -3L cut. It's a virtually-identical "amount of right-heavy" compared to the HD clip above, but the bass is more-or-less centered. Reminder: LP cuts (fairly) commonly use "low frequency blend" to force bass frequencies into the center of the mix, so it's possible that this is going on here, leaving the vocal somewhat to the right.

Regarding the "off-centered-ness" of the UK and HD versions, here are the waveforms for the clips you hear above, with the HD version on the left, and the UK stereo LP on the right (left channel top, right channel bottom):


What to make of this? I'm not quite sure. I've got some ideas, and can post those later. Any thoughts?

 

Yeah, there's something like that in play, definitely. My suspicion? (And I hate to hypothesize on this stuff, but....) I think that both the suitcase version and the recent UMe version didn't have a fully-usable set of "good tapes," be they 3-track tapes or clean UK-mix stereo tapes, so something had to be pieced together, and they kind of "compromised" the best tapes (and how they were used) so as to minimize the differences when having to switch over to the lesser quality source tapes in certain passages. Of course, we'll never know, but it sounds like something along those lines was done.

I also wonder if this is why the "Japanese" version of "The Very Thought of You" is a completely different take after the 1:19 point. Was the stereo mixdown tape of that song from 1962 lost of damaged or something? (I do not know.)

Also, yes, of the four versions posted two posts back, the UK LP is the only one that does not have that splice right on the bass note. That's the UK edit happening at 1:29 vs. the Japanese edit (reused in the suitcase and UMe editions) happening 10 seconds earlier, at 1:19, which is the very end of the clips above.

 

Some guy started a thread on that very topic, but no replies yet: Pye Records Runout Info

 

Earlier ramblings about the different edits on different releases of The Very Thought of You:

Here's a little graph I made to illustrate the confusing editing differences of the UK and "Japanese" LP mixes:

GREEN = Take 5; RED = Alternate take
[UPDATE: See more accurate version here.]

Looking at later, CD-era versions that have been issued, since both such releases have used the non-original, "Japanese" (German?) edit, it seems to me that one of three things must be true: 1.) A fully-usable, master-able copy of the UK edit is not available (lost and/or damaged); 2.) Those compiling the CDs are blissfully unaware of the UK edits; or 3.) the "Japanese" edit is now the accepted/preferred/sanctioned/canonical (I hate using that word) version.

Regarding the following two tangentially-related comments from earlier in the thread:

and

I can't help but wonder if the source issues stem from problems that I suspect may be unique to this particular Sinatra album:
•Tapes perhaps stored, at least at some point, in Europe
•Agfa tape stock

Regarding the 1993/1995 release (single disc and suitcase), I think we have something along these lines:
0:00-0:06 old* mix - somewhat hard, compressed, darker vocal on the very first phrase.
0:06- 1:03 remix** - much lighter sounding, especially in the vocal.
1:03-1:19 old* mix from damaged/compromised source - the "gritty voice" problem that I have mentioned.
1:19-1:59 old Japan mix, from better source.
1:59-2:13 remix** - as with the other section that I suspect is remixed, there is a lighter quality to the vocal.
2:13 - end old Japan mix, with obvious tape damage in several spots.
[EDIT: Please see post #124 below for a slight revision.]
*"Old Mix" could be either the UK mix or the later "Japanese" mix, as the two versions both stem from take #5 through the 1:19 mark.
**Either a remix or, at minimum, a much cleaner, uncompressed, tonally-lighter source tape. I suspect the former.
I'd love to post clips illustrating the transitions, but I don't want to get in trouble, so I won't. If somebody out there has the 1993/1995 CD version, maybe they can give it a listen and follow along with the timings I've posted, and let me know if I'm off base at all.

....and on the 2014/2015 editions, I still don't understand exactly how the bass and guitar are over on the right, unless 1.) there was a live-to-stereo mix made in 1962, and those instruments were placed there; or 2.) there is a 4-track recording, but the info I've found online and in books indicates that CTS had 3-track, not 4-track, capabilities in 1962. In the spot-checking I've done so far, the bass-and-guitar shift to the right only occurs on this song.

 

Going back to Mr. Herschberg's EOTC remastering of The Concert Sinatra: Concert Sinatra EOTC

Such strange goings-on.

 

Let's put a bow on The Very Thought of You, eh? This is getting pretty far down into the weeds. Just a few last comments from me.

First, looking back at these comments regarding the 1993/1995 version:

....I'm amending the end somewhat, as I'm pretty sure that the tail end, from about 2:35 on, is also a remix. More on that later in this post.

Here's an updated grid showing the differing edits in the original mixes, the later Japanese release, the 1993/1995 CD, and the 2014/2015 UMe releases:

GREEN = Take 5; RED = Alternate take; STRIPES = compromised/damaged/questionable source

Regarding the mix/remix situation on the CD-era releases, here (below) is a comparison of the passage from about 1:55 to 2:33, encompassing the last few lines of text prior to the instrumental section, and the instrumental section itself, from the suitcase (green) and UMe release (blue), and note how the left channel (the upper channel) is significantly downplayed (dropped in volume by a large amount) in the recent release.

Below is a similar comparison of the last 25 seconds. The big spikes at the end of the suitcase version (green) are the trumpet blurb just prior to the fadeout. They are much more prominent here than on other versions.

Note, too, how the UMe version greatly downplays the left channel at the end.

As far as tape sources on the UMe version, it's a lot harder to tell what's going on. My suspicion (offered with a large grain of salt) is that it's all from some version of vintage mix material, with a fair amount of dodging and burning (and digital workstation trickery) going on to avoid/mask tape defects. It's curious to note that on the suitcase version, there are passages that have clearly audible tape dropouts, mostly in the left channel, and there is little or no effort to hide them, while on the UMe version, the approach seems to be to alter levels and tinker with things to dodge them. Neither is a perfect solution, and both are distracting in their own ways.

I'm still flummoxed by the appearance of the bass to the right (not centered) in the UMe editions. There's something up with that.

I'm a lifelong fan of the Nat Cole version of this song, but I think this Frank/Farnon version holds its own very, very well. It's really gorgeous.