so how do you clean your vinyl albums?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Wombat Reynolds, Jul 28, 2022.

  1. dwilpower

    dwilpower Forum Resident

    Location:
    Glasgow Scotland
    It's looking a lot like Walter White's Meth Lab... I often wonder how my 86 yr old audiophile dad managed without all these gizmos and potions back in the 70s. This stuff is just part of a very select cult's ceremonial routine carried out before they worship their 4 deities from Liverpool
     
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  2. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    If you’ve never bought a brand new record that needed cleaning, I envy you.
     
  3. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    The used records I get always improve after a few trips trough my Kirmuss usm.

    And I do on rare instances get a dirty/noisy new LP. Again, a few trips trough my Kirmuss usm takes care of that.

    But once clean, they shouldn't need any additional.
     
    Big Blue and GyroSE like this.
  4. Dafox

    Dafox Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northern Colorado
    Do you have any problem keeping the labels from getting water damage?
     
  5. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    1. I'm a serious and careful collector that has been in this hobby for almost 40 years now. I can still find used records in great condition in the used bins, sometimes the reissues can't beat an original soundwise, right?
    2. Economics; I payed around $300 for my Okki Nokki 10 years ago. As I've a couple of thousand records in my collection I don't see that as a vast investment as it has paid of more than enough. No unicorn in my case.
    3. Abuse of records; we've to make things clear here- a record cleaning machine doesn't abuse the records during the cleaning process unless the owner makes things very wrong.
    4. Cleaning records is not a new phenomenon, it was there back in the 70's when the first record cleaning machines began to appear for real on the market.
     
  6. Wombat Reynolds

    Wombat Reynolds Jimmy Page stole all my best riffs. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    I'm unfamiliar with vinyl cleaning fabric brushes - can you please recommend one? Is it a hand held brush or part of a machine/system?
     
  7. dwilpower

    dwilpower Forum Resident

    Location:
    Glasgow Scotland
    I've got 10 years on you pal. Basic regular care is all that is required. Maintenance of equipment is also vital. Paying $300 a decade ago and cleaning over 1000 records DOES make it worthwhile in your case! I know all about the various cleaning gadgets that started appearing back in the 70s- I was there. Pre-owned vinyl - I'm sorry but I just wouldn't go there- too risky.
     
  8. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    Just so everybody understands, there are two different processes we are talking about here:

    - Light dusting off of sleeve/room dust before each play.
    - Serious deep cleaning to get the LP to its own optimal condition.
     
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  9. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I go there all the time- I've experience of buying used records for a very long time and I know exactly what to look for when I check out the record grooves and I'm finding beautiful sounding used records in great condition all the time. The risk is minimal in my case. Actually I don't see the problems at all that you're describing in the posts above.

    Yes I agree. Maintenance is essential to keep the gear in good shape.
     
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  10. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    And to the OP @Wombat Reynolds

    Soaking a record is good if and only if the cleaning solution can dissolve the contaminant or get underneath it to lift the contaminant from the surface (i.e., the record). Alcohol and enzymes work by soaking. However, these only work for some contaminants. But even enzymes which are proteins that can break down biological matter (think surgical scrubs and grass stains), still need a wetting solution (nonionic surfactant) to allow the enzyme to get into the groove when soaking. If you review what is in Tide - CPID (whatsinproducts.com) you will see every type of cleaning agent - surfactants, a touch of alcohol, and enzymes. The cleaning agents doing the most work are anionic and nonionic surfactants, the same stuff that does most of the detergency for dish detergents such as Dawn CPID (whatsinproducts.com). What you do not see in Dawn is enzymes. Note of caution for enzymes: Enzymes can be irritating to some individuals. Per Guidance for the Risk Assessment of Enzyme-Containing Consumer Products ACIConsumerEnzymeProductRiskAssessmentGuide.pdf (cleaninginstitute.org),Almost all enzymes used in consumer products are proteins which are foreign to the human immune system and can act as allergens through a Type 1 hypersensitivity mechanism following exposure, typically by inhalation.”. If while handling or using an enzyme any breathing irritation or difficulty is experienced stop use immediately and seek medical attention if symptoms persist.

    Otherwise, for aqueous (water-based) surfactant chemistry that reduce surface tension (easier to wet the surface) and at high enough concentration detergency, they need agitation - it adds the 'mechanical' energy to the cleaning process. You want the fluid velocity and the fluid chemistry to do the work - its gentle to the surface but effective. Years ago, The Navy (and others) verified from testing that if you can get the fluid velocity above 3 feet per second, with the right chemistry, the cleaning process will achieve precision cleaning levels. The fluid velocity develops shear forces at the substrate surface (i.e., the record) that can break most bonds that hold contaminants to the surface.

    For manual cleaning, and this includes vacuum RCMs, moving the brush quickly back & forth does two things: it develops the high fluid velocity to help with cleaning and when working with surfactants that foam (which is most), the foam that develops lifts (floats) debris from the record surface preventing you from grinding it into the surface. The Amazon.com: Record Doctor Clean Sweep Brush : Electronics just so happens to work perfectly and is cheap and it lasts. Flat surface, short bristle brushes are difficult to move quick enough to develop the fluid velocity, so you are left with grinding the brush into the surface where there is little fluid contained and little foam developed.

    What is the best cleaning process - the one that is best for you. How much $/time /space do you have; how much convenience do you want; how clean do you want the record? As @lazydawg58 said, any process can work, but make no mistake, the devil is in the details.

    Good Luck,
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
  11. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    @dwilpower: If you buy only new vinyl, and take care of it, you may not understand why cleaning is such a big deal. Even so, your new vinyl will, one day, be old vinyl, and carbon fibre brushes cannot work miracles.
    I have found cleaning to be at least as great an improvement in sound quality as many of my major investments in equipment. Because I started when vacuum cleaners were new, I tend to think my Loricraft gets me 90% of the way (certainly further than it's predecessor NittyGritty and VPI 16.5 did), and the Degritter takes me the rest of the way. If I was starting out now with a Degritter by itself, I'd think I was getting 90% of the way to silence just with that. It makes sense to me to keep the Loricraft going as it keeps most of the gross contamination out of the Degritter tank, which is, after all, water that's going to be used for 30 records before being changed. I was very glad when the widow of a deceased colleague asked if I could provide a home for his LP collection. I'm still working through it, as it was something like 1500 disks, and it amazes me how a fifty year old disk with visible crud, and maybe lacking an inner sleeve, can become silent or nearly so, with a bit of care and attention. And, by doing that, I prolong the life of my irreplaceable Decca cartridges. So you go ahead and do you, but don't sneer at those of us who can see the value in cleaning their LPs.
     
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  12. Wombat Reynolds

    Wombat Reynolds Jimmy Page stole all my best riffs. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    I dont have anywhere near the budget many of you. I'm nearing retirement and me and mrs wombat will have significantly reduced income, so at this point, we're saving and concentrating on spending on getting new appliances, etc - the stuff that kills you when it breaks and you're on a fixed income. So. I do have budget to buy small things, like cleaner and brushes and dish racks, stuff like that. I can afford manual hand cleaning methods. Our playback system isnt anywhere near to what many of you have, you might see it and wonder, "why is this guy bothering?" but I like it, I think it still sounds good with a clean record, to my old band-burnt ears.

    So, with that in mind, it was a very interesting post! For deep wet cleaning, if I got the Record Doctor Clean Sweep - what foamy cleaner what you recommend? of this variety? "aqueous (water-based) surfactant chemistry"? and other questions - is it possible to damage the surface by scrubbing too hard or in the wrong direction etc? After this process, do you recommend spraying with distilled water and air drying - or something else?
     
  13. Wombat Reynolds

    Wombat Reynolds Jimmy Page stole all my best riffs. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    back to dry rub prep-before-play situations: another question. Right before I play the album, I'd like to somehow do one last pass at killing as much static as possible. Lets assume the record is dry and recently brushed. Do the anti-static cloths I see online really work? Is that a good way to make one final attempt to kill static, by lightly rubbing the album with one of those cloths - or would that really just create more static and perhaps I should try something else? Low-budget options please if possible.
     
  14. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    If you download this free book Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press, see Chapters II, III and V for manual cleaning process that is cheaper than most.
     
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  15. Jim0830

    Jim0830 Forum Resident

    I got into buying records in the 60's I always took care of my records. Clean records are an essential. When I got back into vinyl 4 years ago, after about a 30 year hiatus, my reward was records that still sounded good. No record has ever gone onto my TT without be cleaned, then and now.

    Record cleaning is a series of choices:
    • What is your system, and how discerning is it?
    • How much time and effort are you willing to put in cleaning your records? It is often a trade off between ease of use vs. cost.
    • How many records do you have now? What condition are they in?
    • How many records do you plan to buy? New or used and in what condition?
    • What can you spend on record cleaning?
    • Just how tolerant are you of record surface noise and clicks & pops caused by crap on the records?
    • How big a problem is static where you live?
    First off I HATE any kind of record noise and that is what caused me to jump into CDs in '85 and not look back until 2017. For me when I was into records from '65 to '85, my cleaning methods back then were as follows: A wipe down with a DiscWasher cleaning brush. The first time I played an album it got wet brush with the DiscWasher and DW cleaning fluid. Subsequent cleanings were the DiscWasher used dry unless the record had picked up grit or dust. I had a Dust Bug record sweeping arm I always used for every record. Lastly if records were noisy and the DW couldn't solve the problem, it was a manual cleaning in a dedicated dish tub with dedicated sponges and towels. Record pressing quality was often pretty crappy in the 70's so I usually had a monthly cleaning session on the weekend for the bad LPs.

    When I got my records out of storage in 2017 I had 800 or so LPs and a growing stack of new LPs. I had just inherited some money, so for the first time in my life budget was not an object. Within reason of course. The first thing I did was try to get a new DiscWasher and I found the new model was not looked at as favorably as the D2 which I had used back in the day. I bought an AQ carbon fiber brush to clean the records before playing. I did buy a series of dust sweeping arms before settling on the Tru-Sweep. I also bought a Milty Zero stat, which I replaced in late 2020 with a Furutech Destat III. The Milty was a PITA to use and the Destat did a better job. I also started resleeving my records with MoFi or EQ inner sleeves and new outer sleeves. The big issue was cleaning the records. With the DiscWasher out of the picture, I began to envision a cleaning machine. This was completely off my radar and beyond my budget 30 years ago. Now I wanted a more permanent solution, where I didn't have to do it with every play. A record cleaning machine would accomplish that.

    Where the money wasn't a problem I looked to streamline the process and so I looked beyond Spin Clean type cleaners and decided on the Okie Nokki vacuum based RCM. I would clean my record once and it would be less work than manually cleaning or a simpler RCM. While I was satisfied with the results, I soon found it was far more hands-on than I imagined. You had to apply the fluid, sweep the surface with the goats hair brush and then dry it with the vacuum wand. The vacuum wand was used for 3 revolutions and I found there was residual moisture left which I would have to let evaporate in a drying rack for 15 minutes or so. The prospect of doing this for 8oo records plus all my new ones had me looking for a better way. I soon found the Audio Desk Vinyl Cleaner Pro UCM. I decided to trade much a higher cost for lower work where I could walk away for 8 minutes or so and multitask. The upgrades I did to my system and the Audio Desk resulted in nearly silent vinyl playback. A Sugar Cube SC-2 Mini click and pop remover eliminates virtually all clicks on records cleaned with the UCM. The UCM reduces the static charge and I rarely have to use the Destat III or the carbon fiber brush. I take a record cleaned on the UCM once out of the anti-static inner sleeve and put it on the platter and play it. I thought things were perfect.

    Four faulty Audio Desk Vinyl Cleaner Pros in just this past year marked my limit of patience with that machine. I bought the new Klaudio that Acoustic Sounds/ Analogue Production recently started carrying. It is even simpler to use and maintain, plus it is built like a tank. It is also a better and more powerful ultrasonic cleaner than the Audio Desk. I've recleaned a few records with the Kladio and they are even quieter then when they were cleaned with the Audio Desk. The surface noise of decent pressings is below my hearing threshold at my listening position. If I put my ear right up to the tweeter I can barely hear any noise.

    This is what you can achieve with vinyl as a source with good cleaning techniques and good quality pressings. Records can be just as quiet as any other source when played through speakers. I realize not everybody can devote this much money to cleaning. Plus I am particularly OCD when it comes to noisy vinyl. I have also become lazy in my older years and I want to do as little as possible to achieve quiet records. If you are on a budget or don't want to invest that much money: In that case you can trade time and a more hands-on method for money. There are many ways to solve this problem. YMMV.
     
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  16. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    So you in effect further clean your records after playing them? After each play? This relates to something I noticed recently after an initial clean of some otherwise mint-looking records I obtained from a thrift shop. They seemed to sound better after the second/third play. I didn’t see how this could be possible. I clean the stylus but never thought about doing anything further to the record.
     
  17. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    See the book Chapter VI. If you have static issues - a very light touch (with you grounded to something metal) with a carbon brush can work. Some anti-static cloths with chemicals will leave residue on the record surface that will gum-up your stylus.
     
  18. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    I am also learning that everyone has different expectations, different levels of noise they are willing to accept.
     
  19. Wombat Reynolds

    Wombat Reynolds Jimmy Page stole all my best riffs. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    Mr. Bewlay and lazydawg58 like this.
  20. Simoon

    Simoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    That will certainly get you sued by the Weyland-Yutani corporation.

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    They can bill me.
    .
     
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  22. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Yep the stylus does a remarkable job cleaning the groove.

    I'll often rake a just-played album with a flashlight and observe lots of debris the stylus has removed from the groove (obviously, this works best in a room that isn't overly bright).

    A carbon fiber brush misted with distilled water does a great job at picking this stuff up. I use 2-3 pumps from a decent atomizer, held maybe 10-12 inches from the brush. There is so little water used that by the time I'm done playing the next side, the brush is dry again, and I can knock the bristles clean with an old credit card and apply a little more water.

    Most of the used records I purchase need nothing else but a play or two each followed by a brushing, and they're very quiet.

    Occasionally someone gives me a record that is pretty noisy after multiple attempts at cleaning, and in these instances it is rarely groove damage and more often the result of the original owner inappropriately cleaning it.

    That may entail repeated cleanings with a Discwasher where the original fluid ran out and the owner simply refilled the bottle at the bathroom tap (so minerals). I'm pretty sure I also routinely see fibers from those cleaning cloths that were once sold in record stores, the ones impregnated with something. Sometimes I run into a lot of detergent residue.

    In any case, I try to limit my approach to alcohol, as I know it contributes no additional residue. I use a cheap velvet brush ($15) and wash/play/brush it a couple of times. Then I dry play/brush it several times, and the record typically continues to improve.

    For the real bad ones, I may need to repeat the process a few times.
     
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  23. aunitedlemon

    aunitedlemon Unity is in the pith.

    Location:
    Oregon
    I've had very good results using the Audio Technica 6012 "sonic broom" before play. I mist the pad with a mixture of 3:1 distilled water/99% isopropyl. The moisture helps to neutralize the static and simultaneously lift any surface dust/lint off the record. Very simple and effective.
     
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  24. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    :righton::shtiphat::tiphat: What he said.
     
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  25. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    He probably just accepted noise as part of the experience.
     

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