Solo Beatles single by single thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Haristar, Jun 17, 2016.

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  1. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Likes to sing along but he knows not what it means

    Location:
    New York
    I love getting into the details like this. Found this quote on Beatles Bible about 'Give Peace a Chance'. We'll figure this out. Couldn't find Lennon's quote yet about the rhythm being off.

    Because of the condition of the room being bad, it's as if you put big speakers in such a small enclosure. Too much noise and in a small environment, and what was going on was the tape picking this up. So it wouldn't have been usable. Originally there were no intentions to have any over-dubs done. But when I left John, he looked at me and I said, 'Well, I'll go back to the studio and listen to this and see what it's like.' And then I decided upon myself that the background was a bit too noisy and needed a little 'sweeping.' By this I mean, we kept all the original stuff, we just kind of like, improved it a bit by adding if you like, some voices. So we called a bunch of people in the studio that night, I did, actually that was my decision. And that's probably why John gave me such a credit on the single because I think he thought I took the incentive of doing that. And since it was multi-track I dubbed the original 4-track to an 8-track machine and then used the other 4-track to overdub some voices.

    The next day I went back to John, made a mix of that I went back to him and they moved everybody out of the room and it was just the three of us, with Yoko, and I played it for him and he thought it was wonderful. Kept it 'as is.' There's another story going around about overdubbing in London, England. Nothing was overdubbed in England. The actual 45 that existed originally is the actual recording. There was also in certain books, references to overdubbing in England, that's not true. The only thing that was overdubbed, like I said, is some of these people, and the reason why I did it, is I wanted to give him some kind of option. You see the point of the matter, it's not that we wanted to cheat anything, it was a question of like, not usable, the condition was absolutely terrible. What we did is by taking the original stuff that was there, and just adding a few voices in a cleaner environment, cleaner recording environment.

    So Andre says only voices but doesn't mention Lennon's issue with the rhythm. Hmm...
     
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  2. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    Yes, I'm familiar with that interview. But Andre is definitely mistaken about his mix being the final version - the released mix definitely has another Lennon vocal on it (on the stereo mix it's slightly off to one side, but easier to hear on the 5.1 mix), and Andre never recorded it (or extra acoustic guitar or 'thumping') in Canada, so...

    BTW, in Chronicle, Mark Lewisohn says 'it is said that Ringo added drums in London, but no documentation exists of such an overdub'. I've been trying in vain for a long time to find the source of that claim (it must be a Lennon or Ringo interview or something, but I can't find it). My guess - Ringo did overdub the thumps in London, and the reason there is no paper trail is because it was done at Trident, not EMI.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
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  3. No Bull

    No Bull Forum Resident

    Location:
    Orlando Florida
    "Instant Karma" is perfection. It always brings to mind a sunny day... this was John the Dreamer.... Magnificence. It also shows that Spector was not just a Wall of Sound producer...
     
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  4. No Bull

    No Bull Forum Resident

    Location:
    Orlando Florida
    I had never heard this version... pretty cool. Thank you. :righton:
     
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  5. O Don Piano

    O Don Piano Senior Member

    So go somewhere else and be "honest". Your "analysis" was just as "dopey" and childish as you described.

    It's interesting how "honesty" is the same as "trolling" to some...........
     
  6. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Likes to sing along but he knows not what it means

    Location:
    New York
    Wow, I don't think I knew that about Ringo possibly being on there. The thing is Lewisohn wrote 'London', and we know that Lewisohn would have probably checked Trident-that point wouldn't have gotten past him. If he thought it was EMI or had the doc he would say 'EMI'. So I'm assuming Lewisohn knew it might not have been at EMI but somewhere else like Trident.

    So you're sure that Andre did not record the additions in Canada the next day? I know the Lennon's had to leave Canada immediately after the 2nd.
     
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  7. Rubber65

    Rubber65 Forum Resident

    Always loved Instant Karma. For some reason, this is what we got in Canada, while in the US it was issued in a picture sleeve. I always thought that Canada issued the same stuff as the US.
    Not issued with a picture sleeve in Canada.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. mrjinks

    mrjinks Optimistically Challenged

    Location:
    Boise, ID.
    Interesting! I've never seen a white Apple sleeve like that. Did other Canadian singles come with that or was it unique to Instant Karma?

    As to the song - probably my favorite Lennon solo track. Superb! Happy to have (once again) picked up a very nice US single w/PS fairly recently!
     
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  9. Chuckee

    Chuckee Forum Resident

    Location:
    Upstate, NY, USA
    Sounds a bit different instrumentally too, very interesting.
     
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  10. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    Pretty much, yes. Andre infers that John was not even at his overdub session in Canada, yet a second Lennon vocal was recorded somehow. Andre only mentions the background singers. Again, if you can listen to the centre channel of the 5.1 mix, it all becomes clearer. Maybe someone who has the time and skill could do it and post it?

    A few pages back I linked to a previous thread about 'Does Macca sing on GPAC?' Whether it's Paul or not (it probably isn't, as he nor anyone else has ever mentioned anything about it), there is another voice on the Trident overdubs, doing those 'woos' and stuff in the background. It's a bit of a mystery as to who was involved at Trident.

    While we're on the subject, the centre channel of the 'Instant Karma' 5.1 mix reveals a bit of John & George dialogue at the end of the (unfaded) track.

    PS. Lewisohn may have thought about Trident as a possibility for the GPAC overdubs, but firm documentation was less likely there than at EMI.
     
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  11. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Well - that was kind of my point! It got radio play bans which hurt its chart position, because of the weird formulation of combining sales and airplay in the Billboard chart.

    In the UK the charts were based on sales only. If the single sells enough to reach number one in the UK, any radio ban would be totally irrelevent. The Sex Pistols reached number one on the singles chart with a banned single, and thus were represented on the chart with a blank space listed as the number one single of the week.

    Sales could be hurt by a ban (mainly for less established acts) if they are not big enough to sell in large numbers automatically on release based solely on who they are (I'd say The Beatles fit into that category). Basically The Beatles didn't NEED radio play to sell records - they had a large enough fanbase who would just buy their records "on spec".

    However in the states with that weird mystery formula of combined sales and airplay, a radio ban could do serious damage to someone's chart position.

    ....and don't even get me started on the nonsense of what Billboard started to do in autumn 1969 with their ridiculous combining the A & B side of a single to give a VERY skewed misrepresentation of the "real" chart placings of the two individual songs.

    For instance IIRC, the change made during Something/Come Together's chart run, bestowed #1 status to two songs, neither of which actually earned that status on its own. Again IIRC, in the previous two weeks before the change one of the two songs had peaked (maintained the same position for two weeks in a row), while the other was actually dropping (had a lower placing in the second of the two weeks prior to the arbitrary and misleading change).

    Suddenly the following week these two songs - neither of which legitimately attained a #1 position on its own, were suddenly listed in the chart as a "combined #1"

    Total nonsense - unless of course both songs received EXACTLY the same number of radio plays that week on every radio station in the country, not to mention nearly every future CCR single (to name one other artist who benefited from Billboard's shenanigans).
     
  12. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Likes to sing along but he knows not what it means

    Location:
    New York
    Well Andre said this part at the end of the first paragraph. I assume 'some voices' were John and others. That would be the 2nd John vocal. I don't have the 5.1 mix of Lennon Legend but maybe I can hear it anyway. I believe you either way regardless-Lennon's voice is pretty recognizable.

    And since it was multi-track I dubbed the original 4-track to an 8-track machine and then used the other 4-track to overdub some voices.

    The woo's aren't part of the original? Funny how I have lots of outtakes of Lennon albums but not of these singles. Alright so we need to know the percussion/door, what the overdubs were, where they were done-though you're pretty sure in London cause of Lewi, and which studio. I'll go through some stuff at some point and if I find anything or if you, we should post it here-sound good?
     
  13. brother1002

    brother1002 I'm hungry....

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Solo Apple singles came in the white Apple sleeves. Beatles singles came in 'The Beatles On Apple' white sleeves.
     
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  14. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    Yes, any additional info or insight is appreciated.

    BTW, what is heard on the centre channel is that second John vocal*, another acoustic, percussion, and various background sounds including the 'wooos'- but nothing of the original performance (except a bit of leakage). The thumping is also in that channel, but also mixed into other channels as well (indicating this was recorded on another track on the tape). As far as I could tell, 3 of the remaining 4 channels of the 5.1 seem to favour Andre's background voices overdubs, with only one channel seeming to feature much of the original 'room' ambience.

    * If you listen to the stereo mix, there's one point where you clearly hear the second vocal - when John sings/says 'We can get it tomorrow, TODAY', the last word is part of the overdub (you can hear it drift to one side of the stereo). It's part of the overdub and is not on the original recording. There are various other little bits like that.

    I'll shut up about it for now though, as I don't want to hijack this thread too much :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
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  15. conception

    conception Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    Instant Karma, coming where it did as a stray in John's catalog, would be easily overlooked, but despite that I find it's one of John's more well-known and best-liked singles. It's one of those songs that fits into its own groove.
     
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  16. Purple Jim

    Purple Jim Senior Member

    Location:
    Bretagne
    I never cared for any of these first three singles from John. It's probably the plodding, sledgehammer approach to the songs that put me off.
     
  17. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Likes to sing along but he knows not what it means

    Location:
    New York
    I also don't mean to hijack-I think we're very close in the vicinity of the subject of the thread-but sorry in advance to HariStar!

    You know what's funny, I always heard 'we can get it tomorrow or today'. 'Or' is barely audible. Couldn't help rehearing it-right on the count off there are two Lennon's. One voice says "2" on the right channel, and then together "a 1,2,3,4" in the center/slightly left area. Than muffled percussion is just driving me nuts-what is it!! Lots of reverb. And yes, "or today" gets panned right as it comes out-so you're definitely correct about two voices. Lennon and his clone Lennon.

    Now we have to figure out where George is heard on "Instant Karma!"! Anybody?-he plays acoustic guitar and piano.
     
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  18. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    The guitars are totally mixed out (maybe even wiped - there suddenly appear at the end of the unfaded mix, as if that part wasn't wiped by overdubs) in favour of the overdubbed pianos. Here's a photo of John at the session:

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Likes to sing along but he knows not what it means

    Location:
    New York
    Thank you Slane. I still wonder about Paul being upset and jealous that George was on "Instant Karma!" and Lennon never asked him, because right after, he went to a proper recording studio to finish "McCartney".

    The timing is just too close.
     
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  20. Rubber65

    Rubber65 Forum Resident

    here are a few examples between the difference. These were all issued in Canada. But some like the let it be single and The Ballad of John and Yoko were issued in picture sleeves in Canada:
    1813 John Lennon Cold Turkey / Don’t Worry Kyoko
    [​IMG]


    Issued on May 5, 1969. This was the first STEREO Beatles 45 issued in Canada. Almost all copies were pressed by Compo, but some rare copies were also printed by RCA with their usual smaller font size. The Compo pressings were issued in the white paper BEATLES ON APPLE sleeve.
    [​IMG]
     
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  21. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    Yes, I agree. It was only when IK became a hit that Paul went into Abbey Road and recorded two 'proper' songs (he taped a third song there a few days later). I suppose that might just be coincidence, but I believe not - I see it as the point when 'McCartney' stopped being just a side-project (that didn't 'compete' with the Beatles work).

    I don't know if it's just another coincidence, but George's 'The Inner Light' was first mixed into stereo earlier in the day of the 'Instant Karma' session (Jan 27) - I suppose it's possible that he was already at Abbey Road (though there are no details about him attending the mix session, or indeed just why it was mixed at that particular time).
     
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  22. the sands

    the sands Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Lennon was in a sloganeering type of mood with his early singles. Instant Karma's gonna get you! POWER TO THE PEOPLE! They're almost the opposite of the sparse and introvert "John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band".
     
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  23. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    It took some balls for a mainstream artist with as much popularity as Lennon to put out Cold Turkey at that time. Not one of my top favorite songs from him but I admire it on many levels.
     
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  24. DmitriKaramazov

    DmitriKaramazov Senior Member

    Instant Karma!

    Along with "Like a Rolling Stone" and "Hey Jude" it's one of the greatest singles of all time!
     
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  25. dudley07726

    dudley07726 Forum Resident

    Location:
    FLA
    Too bad is was recorded distorted in some parts.
     
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