Sonic Differences of Cables

Friends,

I have been trying to explain my belief to others that better designed and manufactured cables do, in fact, sound better. The contentious debate has been through the usual back and forth about double blind listening tests and scientific measurments, etc. My goal is simply to convince a handful of friends that sonic differences can occur by creating a well-designed listening test for them to participate in.

A couple of questions:

1. Do you believe that sonic differences can occur in either speaker cable or interconnect?

2. How would you devise such a test to be fair, regardless of your position in question #1.

We will have access to audiophile playback equipment and my overall goal is to create a very obvious, say "black and white", scenario where even casual listeners should hear a big improvement when the better cable is installed. My plan is to have a rock-bottom 12 guage speaker cable and something exotic like Cardas Golden Reference as the second cable.

There has also been some discussion that DBT pitfalls can be avoided by substituting a third cable of high end design and asking people to rank the 3 choices in terms of sound quantity.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

Lee

 

Here's how I feel about it, not necessarilly designed to get me flamed... Here we go...

Cable connect differences is 100% plecebo effect IMHO. As long as you are using gague wire that's appropriate for carrying the electric current, I've used so many different wire, that I've given up the ghost and now roll my own.

The easiest, strongest, most make-sense cable I've ever used is this crazy Lucent coax wire that gets thrown away from the cable workers. It's thinner than most coax, it solders in quick, and it's very strong. I use that for interconnects using simple gold RCAs from Radio Shack.

Best speaker wire that's worked and performed beyond its worth is stranded copper Radio Shack, I believe it was 16 gague.

You really have to set the wire in for use for a few weeks then change, leave it in for weeks on end. Good luck! Maybe the change of wire will gie you a desireable/undesireable effect!

For me... Blah.

 

I am aware of the blind testing debates as well as the sometimes negative aura around cables/interconnects. When I audition cables in a system, I do it like any other component that I am about to buy.

I start by comparing a new cable with the one I currently using. If there is a notable positive difference, then I may compare another cable or two one at a time all the while making both written and mental notes. I usually take several days to a week to do this slow process.

In the end, I pick what ultimately sounds best to my ears. If it's expensive or cheap, it doesn't matter- it just has to sound better then what I currently am using in order for me to open up the wallet.

It's because of the labor intensive switching of cables and listening for days that I usually only do this once every ten years or so. I find what I like and they stay with it and don't think about it. In that time, however, I probably will upgrade another component in my system (amp, preamp, cd player, etc.).

I purposefully try not and make it too elaborate or scientific if you will. After all, this hobby is about having fun and listening to music, not necessarily driving oneself nuts with constantly evaluating and upgrading.

 

I purposefully try not and make it too elaborate or scientific if you will. After all, this hobby is about having fun and listening to music, not necessarily driving oneself nuts with constantly evaluating and upgrading.

KLM,

I agree that music is the ultimate goal here but I am trying to convince people that cables can improve the sound. I think it is a challenging intellectual exercise as well. I work part-time in a recording studio and sometimes the cable changes have a big and positive effect on the sound. I have also noticed this with my high rez home stereo. The addition of Cardas Golden Reference for me was amazing!

 

In my experience cables can make a big difference. I also found that:

1) Cables, as well as any other component have to be auditioned over a period of time to form a valid opinion. I have had components in my system that while initially very impressive (hey, I never heard that note or whatever quite that clearly before) only turn out to be almost unlistenable after an extended period of time.

2) The following happens to me every time I install new cables so I have to think it is a valid observation:

As good as a set of cables may sound when you first install them, after a period of time usually a few days the sound improves immensely and, all of a sudden, like falling off a cliff. I believe that a short "burn in" is required every time you reposition cables.

I am currently using Cardas Golden Cross interconnects from my SACD player to my preamp and from my preamp into my amp and find them a very synergistic match to my system.

 

Here is my suggestion for doing the best demo. Do some intensive listening for yourself between two cables you choose to compare. Keep it to two so as to keep things very simple. Figure out what you think the differences are and write down a description of those differences. Then when your friends come over for comparisons let them take a sighted test and tell them what to listen for. Then do a blind test afterward. This should help reveal the true differences of the cables and perhaps offer some insight on the difficulties of blind tests that some people feel interfere with detecting sonic differences and some insight on the potential problems with sighted tests. I would also even suggest trying the ever unpopular null tests between the two cables if you have time. It is the easiest test in the world to do with cables. Just run a mono signal through the system using one of each cable on each side to one speaker. Run one cable with the leads reversed and use the balance control to insure levels are matched. Compare the signal through the speaker to the same test using the same cables on each side. If the different cables create a sound that is different and /or louder than the two matched cables you have some evidence of a real sonic difference.

 

A listening test that will be pretty obvious is to compare interconnects with very high capacitance (say 500 pF) with interconnects that have a very low capacitance (say 40 pF). If you have a capacitance meter it's easy to come up with a couple of candidates.

Regards,
Geoff

 

I happen to be a big believer in interconnect differences. I can hear differences very clearly, too. It really does not take long at all to hear the differences as long as you know what to listen for!

Some cable company used to make a switch box just for these camparisons. XLO, I believe.

Problem is, the differences between cables can be subtle, not black and white, and it will be a hard sell if the people have absolutley NO idea of what they should be listening for.

I have very little experience in auditioning speaker cable. A good 12 gauge OFC cable is good enough for me.

 

Which is...?

And Khorn suggested...

Why? What would this procedure accomplish or change? And how would it do it?

 

Measure capacitance and inductance of cables? One can make a voltage divider. Just put a purely resistive resistor in series with the device under test and drive a pure sine from the signal generator. Look at the voltage across the resistor with the scope or voltmeter. If it is an inductor, the voltage across the resistor is given by:

Vl = V-[(V*2*pi*f*L)/((2*pi*f*L)+R)]

if it is a capacitor, the voltage across the resistor is:

Vc = V-[(V(1/(2*pi*f*C))/((1/2*pi*f*C)+R)]

V is the sinewave output voltage, f is the frequency of the sinewave.

This will not be a very accurate measurement, due to error in the resistor value, parasitics, measurement error etc..

Sounds like a lot of work actually - my hearing isn't what it used to be anyway

 

Though I've been an audio nut since High School in the late 70's. I never believed this cable mumbo jumbo. When I bought a new amp and CD player I started auditioning different interconnects. The differences ranged from slight to shocking. But there was always a difference. I agree that something that highlights the details, exposing things you've never heard before can be bad news in the long run. I bypassed a couple of very interconnects from MIT and Transparent because I was afraid of too much detail. Spent a ridiculous amount on Harmoin Tech Truth Links.
Detail still there but they also warm things up...at least to my ears in my system. The point is, they sounded the best so I bought 'em.
Everybody owes themselves the chance to at least try, even if only at the store level to decide for themselves.

 

While agree that there are audible sonic differences between cables I find the prices charged for some high-end interconnects ridiculous. $1350.00 for a 1m pair? Unless the wire is pure gold, I can see absolutely no reason for six feet of wire to cost anywhere near that. Please don't pummel me with "you get what you pay for" or "any price for excellence" flames. This is one area of our hobby where fleecing is rampant. As always I say "It's your money and your ears".

 

Can't disagree with the price issue. I'm flirting with the bottom end of the market. I paid just over $300CDN which I thought was high but justifiable considering the improvement. I was not prepared to go any higher.
The other brands were less by maybe a third. I'm sure more expensive cables would be audibly different, not necessarily "better". But yes, the prices asked are ridiculous.

 

I agree with most here in that there are always differences that can "usually" be heard within a minute. There are some that actually require a little longer say 5 min. Like most everyone, if it's not better than what I've already got, I pass. There is absolutely no reason to do a plethora of tests when the bottom line is...How does it sound in your system?

Can anyone suggest an IC for me to try that can possibly compare to the Kimber KS series? I've tried over 1/2 a dozen so far and nothing else has come close to these? a lot of the big names have been shot down by these babies!

BTW Anyone who thinks that cables don't make the difference is welcome anytime to come by my home and bring what you use.

 

Hey Dave,

From my experience the whole cable thing is somewhat system dependent as well. It would be tough to say that cable X will sound better than cable y on ALL types of systems out there....

Ex.:

I used to have a SS system using a Sunfire amp and PS Audio Ultralink DAC (before the company went under and had to rebuild). Somehow that system sounded best with Tranparent Super and Music Link.

Today I listen to a little 1.5 w SET with a DUAL 1257 and a Monolithic phono and those same cables don't sound good at all.

On the SS with the digital they seemed to tone down the highs a bit - giving it a smooth sound. On the tube system with the analog the cables sound dark and muddy. The more cost effective MIT Terminator 2 sound much better here.

I imagine that the Kimber is probably a good match for your system. Any significant change would probably be cost prohibitive - some of the prices now are out of control anyway - what makes ANY 1.0 m cable worth $ 3,000.00? I feel stupid paying $100.00

 

Hell, I wish I knew the answer to some of these questions. All I can do is tell you what I have experienced. That's the thing about Hi-Fi, a lot of it is very subjective. There are many things we can't readily explain. I'm sure there is a scientific provable reason for these things, we just don't know what they are and how to translate or measure them at this point. If enough people come to the same conclusion through experience chances are it is the case even if it can't be readily explained.

For a bit of a way out example take the cases in Europe in the middle ages when people hallucinated after contact with rye grain. They blamed it on witchcraft. It was later proven that their skin absorbed a substance similar to LSD. At the time nobody could explain what was going on even though it was sure as hell happening. We would be very presumptuous to think that just because we don't have an immediate answer for something that it isn't so.

 

System specific is the key. Tried my Harmonics at the store, same electronics but, of course, different room and speakers. Brutal, mushy, no detail. Yet at home I love them.
It was just mentioned that the Transparents were too dark on an SET system and the Terminator 2's were better. On my system I found the opposite. The Music Links were more revealing, though only slightly, than the T2. But, different electronics so what does that prove? Gotta buy what sounds good to your ears and wallet,

 

Amen to that!

 

I am of the opinion that every different cable will add its own unique coloring to the sound that it produces.

I also beleive that the metals that are used can be best suited for a particular system.

Silver wire s good for some tube systems

Copper wire might be better for some solid state

Aluminum wire has its own unique characteristics

Silver and Copper is another solution

The wire gauge can affect signal. If you are running a cable long distances
you need to consider maybe a heavier wire.

There is a cause and affect for everything around us.

I think I've said enough.

Best regards,

Gary S. Freed

 

But I wonder sometimes if it is actually our brains adjusting to the new "sound" as opposed to some gradual physical improvement in the piece of gear due to break-in.

 

I must admit that I have little doubt that cables can make a difference - but from my own eadventures I have never heard a major change when tinkering All the same I find a little bit of tweaking to be very enjoyable and think it helps me enjoy the total listening experience

Wouldn't have a clue as to how to test for what I have written above

All the best - Andrew

 

Dave's point is a good one. How much of 'break-in' is real and how much is mental. Having said that, my new Arcam amp was dreadful out of the box, especially when compared to the dealer demo. I know of one person who actually did a side by side comparison of a new and a demo amp. The difference, I'm told, was not subtle.
This is a common feeling with Arcam owners. Is it in our heads ? I don't think so. All I know is I like the amp after having lived with it for a few months.

 

I too am skeptical of break-in. Especially with solid state components. While I'm sure there are some minute changes that occur as power supplies, transistors and other bits warm up and "compose" themselves. I often wonder if it isn't me that's doing the most breakin' in as I get acclimated to the sound of my new hardware. With the relatively small amount of current going through your typical interconnect it's hard to image any major molecular changes taking place. On the other hand, tube components may take months to get broken in and harmonically balanced. I'm also sure that mechanical devices such as phono cartridges and speakers can take some time to loosen up and become more musical with play. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I haven't perceived a change in a components performance over the first few weeks I've used it, I'm just not sure which one of us changed.

 

You have a very nice interconnect made in your backyard. Well, not quite. But it is made in Canada. I'm talking of Coincident. The CST-IC cables from Israel Blume's company are very sweet, maybe slightly dark when compared to pure silver wires.

If you haven't read what Arthur Salvatore thinks, check out www.high-endaudio.com. Until he tried US$1500 interconnects from Jeff Silversmith, he thought the Coincidents at US$300 were a very good choice. He covers this in a bit of detail in his recommended components section on his web site.

I have a pair between my preamp and my SET monoblocks. I used to use the CST-IC between the SACD player and preamp, but replaced it a few months ago with a DIY silver cable. The main reason I did this was to be able to omit the BAT RCA-XLR adaptors, so I made cables that have Eichmann Bullet plugs on the SACD end, and Neutrik XLRs on the preamp end. They took ages to break in and lose the top-end hype, but they are very nice now.

Regards,
Geoff