Speakers for Jazz

I was, apparently that was unclear.

I will say this: For example, say you have a bookshelf speaker with LF response extending to 50Hz. If you play music with a lot of bass in it (not 'bass' or 'sub-bass' specifically), at a certain volume the woofer may distort. In that situation, is the speaker a. distorting bass frequencies above 50 Hz, or b. trying to produce frequencies below 50 Hz and distorting? Put another way: Does the low end of frequency response for a speaker mean it will under no circumstances reproduce frequencies below that number?

 

By the way, quick check-in: This forum has a tendency to get 'authoritative' and I feel like this thread's taking on that vibe. Can we refocus on helping each other here and having a conversation opposed to being authoritative and judgmental? I'm
not claiming to be any sort of expert and I'm trying to not sound like an idiot. As much experience as I have with audio, I'm very aware that there's a ton that I don't know...just looking to learn and I feel there's a fair amount of 'scoffing' thus far...I may be wrong but that's how I'm calling it.

 

Not at all. The low end frequency limit published by most honest manufacturers is the "F3" response - that is the point at which the bass frequencies are 3db below the midband. Some manufacturers publish the F6 number - 6db below the midband. The F6 is still considered "useful" bass. There is no agreed upon standard, which is why many manufacturer-published response specs are useless. There's often no way of telling if the manufacturer is publishing specs based on typical in-room response or anechoic chamber response.

It's better to find a graph of measurements taken in a quasi-anechoic, near field environment - like those attached to Stereophile or Hi-Fi Choice reviews. This will give a pretty good indication of actual bass capability.

Also, there's a good chance that loud bass output in a relatively inexpensive speaker will compromise the midband quality through cabinet resonance. This is why a $1K pair of 3-way floorstanders can often produce inferior sound to that of $1K 2-way standmounts. Modest floorstanders often don't "disappear" as well as standmounts because their cabinets can end up being large resonating panels - typically results in obvious cabinet localization. This is one reason i recommended the Klipsch RP towers, their cabinets weigh in at 50lbs, which indicates a substantial build, the mass of which is usually found in $2K/pair floorstanders.

 

I've found among my vintage home system with '72 Sansui 2000A amp and two way Norman Labs Model 82's (rated to reproduce down to 38Hz), my car audio's back dash Polk 6x8's with two 10in. subs in the trunk both driven by a 250watt Alpine amp with 12db per octave 80Hz crossover (no idea what bass Hz number that system can go but it's way lower than my Labs) and my Mac Mini listening on Sony MDR V6 headphones (rated to reproduce down to 5Hz-yeah, right, Sony) I can play EDM music on all of them and can hear at least down to 30Hz but it's not that loud and the loudness varies across all three systems. It's a kind of hint of low end that hangs in the air like distant thunder.

So my point is I wouldn't focus on bass responses according to Hz numbers but just listen. My Norman Labs will play EDM's very low bass frequencies beyond 38Hz but it has a natural passive cut that keeps those frequencies from damaging the woofers but loud enough to feel them more than hear them. If I cranked up my Sansui so loud it disturbs my neighbors in my apartment that will most likely shred the woofers.

Editing bass frequencies in Audacity on quite few '70's jazz pieces I found there's a reason they lack the punch of the kick drum and that's because the walking upright or electric bass dominates and resonates mostly in the 60Hz region which is right in the same region of the kick drum bottom end punch. That's where the huge hum often associated with upright bass plucking resides. The lower frequencies tend to reduce in loudness I'm having to assume due to the mic not being able to pick up on it during the recording or to control this bass resonating effect that can destroy woofers if attempting to adjust overall loudness to balance out with the midrange.

 

Below is an example of the kind of jazz recordings by Verve that most are familiar with listening to Coltrane, Miles, Wes Montgomery, etc. that have your typical walking upright bass and drum set only this is a live 1959 German recording of Harry James big band "Shiny Stockings" which challenges a broader audio dynamic range with the loud brass over somewhat quieter jazz quartets that have mostly low volume instruments playing like a saxophone, piano, bass and drums. It's easy to increase volume on your system to bring out this upfront midrange live sounding performances that folks like to record to show off their system on YouTube videos...



I have this Harry James Silver Collection CD and the recordings are top shelf. In Audacity "Shiny Stockings" highest upright bass note is around 110Hz (-14db), the lowest is at 60Hz (-20db). There is room roar in some parts of the recording that raises the 20-40Hz regions by as much as 7db (-20db from -27db) and I can barely hear it on my Sony MDR V6's. It's really pronounced playing on my car audio Polks and Clarion subs. Norman Labs with 10inch woofers hints at it but does play those 60-100Hz upright bass plucks quite loud compared to my Sony headphones.

Just do a volume increase/decrease experiment on the YouTube version by noting what gets loudest FIRST when increasing volume on your system. Is it the brass? And does the 60-100Hz bass notes get just as loud or does it pretty much stay the same? You want the bass and brass to equally get loud on your speakers. Some headphones may not do this.

But really that Harry James example is about the most dynamic range jazz recordings have and most of the notes can be played on bookshelf speakers if one goes by their reproduction profile in Hz.

 

I also listen to a lot of jazz, and reading threads like this has helped to give me some idea of which speakers might appeal to me. If you don't mind, I'll throw in a question here.

Right now, my local CL has some interesting vintage speakers for sale: ADS L620, KLH Six, Polk Monitor 10a, Boston Acoustics A200, some Advents. Someone out on the coast is selling Marantz Imperial 7 speakers for $45 (need new cloths & refinishing, they say), but I'd have to drive a long way. Anyway, I probably will check out some of them, but in the meantime I'm reading glowing praise for some newer Wharfedales and B&W, and some people seem to like Fluance speakers for those on a budget of less than $1000, too.

I'm curious to hear some opinions, do you still prefer the sound of vintage speakers, or is it just more fun for some of you to fix up old electronics? If I'm not so savvy about speaker repair, or just want the best sound that I can afford, would it be advisable just to get something new?

 

If getting two way speakers (new or vintage/any price) cover the tweeter and listen to the woofer playing any music that displays full dynamics. If the woofer sounds murky or soft in detail DON'T get it.

 

Rich,

I'll throw out the only pair of speakers I can recommend from personal experience that may fall into your budget, especially used: the Decware "Trapeziums."

DECWARE Desktop Speakers model TRAPEZIUM

Though described as "Desktop speakers" I use these in my second system as bookshelf speakers and have used them as monitors on stands and they are excellent speakers. I mainly listen to jazz as you probably suspect from our correspondence, and these speakers really come alive with a little power and present that genre of music very well, vividly with real presence and ambiance and imaging. Your Marantz amp should drive them very well and with the EQ you should be able to get very good sound.

 

What an odd question...there is no such thing as speakers suited to certain genre. If you are serious about jazz and want an authentic listening experience get a single Altec 604. Also I would recommend reading up on the mechanics of speakers and how they actually work to get a better understanding of the sound that you are looking for. Good luck with your search.

 

I'm an Altec guy, the 604 is indeed a nice speaker, but... just the speaker alone will run about $500 each. and that is without the cabinet.

Here is one listed at Reverb.com USED of sale for $954 plus shipping.



Here are eBay search engine results for different used 604's being offered.

To the OP, the 604 is no longer in production, although Great Plains, who have the rights to Altec legacy products manufactures a current model the 604-8H-III, I don't know what the price is.

Here is a 6moons review on a 604 build.

 

With only two feedback, you should try being more polite in a new place. I was going to PM you about this but you seem to have PM'ing turned off. Dunno if it was your intention but you sound judgmental and condescending.

 

+1. Good start, new member.

 

You may have to have a few posts before you have PM privileges.

I believe that you need something like 50-posts before you have access to the equipment for sale forum. Though I'm not sure of either numbers.

You may not be able to see it, I'm not sure.

I have bought a lot of my own gear from other member's of the forum and have been very pleased. There is always lots of good things on the for sale forum's.

I don't think that visitors who are not members can even see the for sale area of the forum.

There are also old legacy Altec's that come up for sale, they are natural sounding and very nice for Jazz. Although Altec was mainly in the pre-audio market, they also had a home division. Models like the Valencia and Santiago are on their higher end. They were made during the 60's and early 70's. They are really smaller home versions with components that are found in their pro audio line.

Here is a YouTube video on the Valencia's.



You can find these on YouTube and they are typically less expensive than the 604 based systems.

The 604's originally came out in the 1940's, I believe as 602's?

The 604 family are a co-axial speaker, with the HF horn mounted inside of the woofer. These were not intended for theater use, like their large systems, but were designed to be used as monitors in the control room. Altec referred to this style of speaker as a "duplex" Abby Road studio's used to have them.

This image come as a repost from a SHF's thread from a couple of months ago.

Abbey Road speakers? Beatletime



While the vintage Altec's are excellent speakers all around and are excellent for Jazz, they will be outside of your price range as I understand it.

If you do keep an eye out for a pair of Wharfedale W70's or even better W90's, they would fit your bill for a whole lot less money.

I didn't know about them, until I had read some posts and had some interaction from member Gang-Twanger. Unfortunately he has not been seen around here since the fall of 2016. He did have 973 posts and 5,694 likes since he joined back in 2015.

Here is a SHF's search engine results link to some of his posts about the W90's that he was crazy about. He owned a pair of W90's which he used on his vintage system. He has six pages of search engine results where he mentions the W90's.

This is his post in the member's gear photos post.

He was the forum's biggest fan of these speakers and the reason I came to own them myself.

Many forum members own Klipsch speakers, such as the Cornwall's and the smaller Heresy's. These are highly efficient speakers and can be easily be driven by modestly powered tube amps. One member I know happened to score a pair of Cornwall's for $600, which was quite a deal. These are horn loaded speakers, like the Altec's. I have both modern and legacy Klipsch speaker's.

Gang Twanger did not care for horn speakers, which is why he liked the Wharfedale's. The W90's have good size cabinets so the bass is impressive.

Here is one of his posts from the summer of 2016.

 

Why? Are your actual speakers in bad condition? If no, I’d say “why?”.

And me, I've heard murmurs that smaller cars are better than big ones.

If you HEAR (read) it, why NOT TRUTH for those who prefer them?

Audio gear treats and reproduces AUDIO SIGNALS, not “jazz”, “vocals”, “speech”, “symphony”, “birds singing” etc. etc. … It can do it very well, well, satisfactorily, poorly.

Consequently, there is no audio equipment “for “jazz”, “for vocals”, “for speech”, “for symphony”, “for birds singing” etc. etc. (if it’s not SPECIAL equipment for sound measurements, dolphins or bats voices etc.).

In my personal experience, concerning LSs, I had big three-way floor standers with 12" woofers too. They died of their surrounds in polyurethane foam decomposition. Now I have, for about 8 years, big three-way floor standers with two 10" woofers each, their surround are in butyl. No sign of decomposition so far.

Very good realization of “extra-lows” from about 25 Hz, meaning the “25…40 Hz” zone boost with good quality graphic equalizers (this equalization being an absolute “must” for practically all “market” LSs models with their “roll-off” or even “cut-off” of the “extreme lows” down from “50…70 Hz). And for the rest of the audible frequency range. At REASONABLE listening power levels!

Returning to your question “smaller woofer sizes being preferred for jazz, any truth to this?”, to me, NO.

 

I have never heard them but Ron Carter, Herbie Hancock own them as well as Keith Richards. However, they are very expensive.

 

For a more modern speaker and a set that is not so overpowering in a room try Totem Acoustics Kin minis with matching Kinmini subwoofer. Very airy and not too bright and tinny for shimmering cymbals and musical not boomy bass. Rediscover your music - KIN Mini

 

Please realize that the majority of speakers being sold today are primarily intended for HT speakers and many are not all that desirable for stereo.

My front main tower's and I have had many, are used both for stereo and HT, so I do take this into consideration.

A lot of posts in this thread seem to dwell on how low the speaker can play.

I would like to point out that how low a speaker can play is not the same as how it sounds playing it.

While many HT type speakers have "punchy" bass, it is not necessarily a relaxed and natural sounding bass.

I do find that many vintage speakers, while they may not play as deep frequency wise, those with cabinets and woofer's of a sufficient size have a deep and more natural sounding bass.

The open low "E" string of an electric guitar is just over 41-Hz. Most bass guitarists rarely play with an open "E" string by itself.

And, just because the -3 dB point, which is basically considered to be "flat" response is at a certain low frequency, that should not be taken to mean that the speaker cannot effectively play lower than that frequency and sound good.

Another thing to consider, is that most legacy speakers were all about natural sounding mid's., HT speakers are rarely about mid's.

 

I have a special fondness for either throaty female vocals or deep bass male voices and I lean toward warmer sound. I'm also more liking speakers that can re-create a wide and deep sound stage than those that are focused on absolute details and clarity. perhaps this is one of the reasons why I like KEF speakers because I think they compliment this kind of music and suits my taste. Their brand new speakers are not cheap at all but if you can grab a set of used Q1 for example that may be worth it for you.

 

Although way out of the desired price range and likely not helpful to the OP, Swedish made Marten speakers have models named after jazz performers Coltrane, Mingus, and Django. They must sound good on jazz, eh?

 

I don't think you can use (send or receive) the PM function until you have a certain number of posts.

 

Pioneer still makes their Andrew Jones designed speakers. A pair of the SP-FS52 floorstanders sells for about $250 (if not less). I only heard these briefly when purchasing their SP-BS22-LR stand-mounts a few years ago but I liked what I heard. I use the SP-BS22-LR's at work where we listen to Radio Paradise and a number of jazz stations. Surprisingly good sound for such a low cost.

 

Find the best Spendor's you can afford!

 

I remember listening to some Magneplanar speakers and thinking they did sound better with acoustic and jazz but were lacking compared to the Polks I ended up buying when it came to the rock music I listen to most.

I'm not sure how low your budget actually is, but I'd look vintage before buying low end (cheap) new speakers.

 

McIntosh.

 

Mcintosh is Class B