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Speed stability: Direct Drive vs belt

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by DaleClark, Feb 11, 2019.

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  1. Not Insane

    Not Insane You talkin' to me?!

    Location:
    Kentucky
    I used to sell them and I never, EVER experienced cogging, nor did any of my customers, nor my brother or any of my friends.
     
    googlymoogly and patient_ot like this.
  2. Not Insane

    Not Insane You talkin' to me?!

    Location:
    Kentucky
    This^^
    When I was posting Sunday I looked at my LP120 and realized I could build any kind of wood shell for it if I really wanted to. I have wood coming out my ears on my property. Standing, felled, soft, hard, you name it. Even a lot of barn wood.
     
    googlymoogly, Big Blue and patient_ot like this.
  3. Mmmark

    Mmmark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I always make sure to adjust my magic suckers to minimum regardless what type of TT I use. Haven't had too many issues. I suppose it's just a philosophical approach though, since I'm pretty sure none of my records are magical. I suppose you never know though!
     
  4. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Since you haven't filled out your profile, just what turntables would those be?
     
  5. Mmmark

    Mmmark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Technics SL 1800 mk2.
     
  6. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    Nor have I (I used a Technics 1200 for 10-plus years as my daily turntable, and still use it on occasion). I like the current turntable I have in my listening area (a Garrard 401), but I would never turn anyone away from buying a Technics direct drive, whether one of their higher-end goodies or the current 1200 models. There's a lot to love there, and the turntables are the definition of being easy to use.
     
  7. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Just watch the oscillation of the strobe.
     
  8. Mmmark

    Mmmark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    [/QUOTE]KAB sells a magic booster, is it worth it?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2019
  9. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    I'm talking about hearing any ill effect from what is claimed. I've never heard the sound of cogging affect LP playback with a Technics direct drive. What I do hear is steady, pitch-accurate playback.
     
  10. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Hmmm...then why the need to design a coreless motor for the new models?
     
  11. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Go have a listen to a reference grade belt-drive and maybe you'll understand.
     
  12. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    An improvement in the Technics' already-impressive specs doesn't mean anyone was "hearing" the motor cogging with the previous models.
     
  13. Davey

    Davey NP: Art Davis - A Time Remebered

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    According to Technics, it causes a degradation in sound quality, which means someone must've heard it. And of course, some of the other manufacturers moved to coreless motors on their high-end tables back in the day :)

    Conventional analogue turntables have problems with degradation in sound quality caused by factors such as minute speed vibration during rotation and rotation irregularity called "cogging." In the SL-1200G, the use of a newly developed coreless direct-drive motor with no iron core eliminates cogging. Also, the twin-rotor construction reduces the bearing load while maintaining high torque and also reduces minute vibration during rotation. These factors enable reproduction of the warm, exquisitely detailed sound etched on analogue records. - Grand Class Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1200G Hi-Fi Audio | Technics US
     
    Slick Willie likes this.
  14. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    Again, I don't doubt the new models offer improvements in the table's functional performance, but I still maintain no one was hearing "cogging" with an older model, short of there being degradation in the electronics or similar. There are also other factors that went into the sound of the older models, including a platter that rang like a bell and a tonearm with some real structural problems and cheap wiring. Actually "hearing" cogging is another matter.
     
    rebellovw and patient_ot like this.
  15. Mmmark

    Mmmark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    What does reference grade mean? I see that term a lot on here, but as far as I can tell it's just a euphemism for 'very expensive'. I guess it can't really have anything to do with actual performance (at least in this context), so it's more like 'when you know, you'll know', right?
     
  16. The DD turntables are typically the most stable. BD turntables may have a problem spinning up and maintaining correct speed. As a belt ages, it stretches and slips. Exposed belt drives are prone to contamination. A belt should never come in contact with you hands, no matter how clean they are.
    Back to DD's. Some have a built-in monitor to keep the speed precise. The purpose of a pitch control on a DD TT is to speed it up or slow or slow it down for whatever your reason might be. Another advantage is to adjust the speed for records which were not cut at the correct speed, some I've found being way off.
    A pitch control is handy on a BD TT to also compensate for belt wear. Most BD TT's I've had and/or seen didn't spin at the correct speed, even brand new out of the box. If they don't have pitch adjustments or dedicated external speed controls, you might find yourself up a creek without a paddle.
     
  17. Not Insane

    Not Insane You talkin' to me?!

    Location:
    Kentucky
    Define "need"?
     
  18. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    As a marketing ploy to overcome baseless psychological objections to their original models and put the idea of "cogging" to rest once and for all and gain market share among the audiophile belt drive purists?
     
    JP, bever70, rebellovw and 2 others like this.
  19. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Doubtful. If it was a cheap marketing ploy, then I'd possibly buy that idea. They had a loyal following prior to reentering the market. Competitors have had no trouble selling droves of tables with traditional DD motors. They probably could've priced the tables lower had they followed suit, and made up the difference by sales quantity. It seems to me they felt the need to address some big weaknesses of the original design, hence the $1700 price tag.
     
  20. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    A drive belt is elastic. It stretches and flexes during operation. In the world of audiophile critical listening where minute variations in speed theoretically should not be tolerated, trying to maintain the perfect speed of a turntable platter with an elastic belt is counter productive.
    The drive motor has speed fluctuation. Adding an elastic belt to the system adds more speed fluctuation.
     
    missan likes this.
  21. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Precisely.

    During the time that Technics left that market, NO ONE was making high quality direct drives as good as the old Japanese tables at any sort of production scale.

    If anyone doesn't understand why an older Technics 1200 QL motor doesn't cog they need to go back and re-read what I posted here:

    Speed stability: Direct Drive vs belt

    Bottom line is that when Technics reintroduced the 1200 with the G and GR models (at higher prices than the days of old) they HAD to show some improvements in order to justify the price. Any company in any business worth their salt would do this. I'm also sure Technics was keenly aware of the outright INCORRECT information salesmen and audiophiles were spreading about direct drive during the interim. Further, there were reports that the old 1200 tooling was destroyed so redesign was necessary.
     
  22. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    I think You nailed it. It canĀ“t depend on any specs, as I not seen any cogging with the old design.
     
  23. Not Insane

    Not Insane You talkin' to me?!

    Location:
    Kentucky
    Let me say that more clearly: What need do you think they were trying to satisfy?

    The need I think they were trying to satisfy was marketing: Something they could talk about.

    Nothing man made is perfect. Everything "needs" improvement.
     
    googlymoogly, patient_ot and missan like this.
  24. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    A well-built BD table (quiet bearings, quiet motor, good tonearm etc.) with adjustable speed and precision speed controller - features that usually require an outlay >$2K in the new retail market. I highly doubt most (key word) SLxxxx fanboys have any real experience with such a design. That DD's are superior, is their stance because that's what they own, it's what they've always owned, and they read that it's superior, therefore, it's the best, end of debate.
     
    sublemon, VinylSoul and swvahokie like this.
  25. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Marketing is definitely part of the picture. Reintroducing older technology just isn't very exciting. If the performance improves along with it so much the better.
     
    patient_ot and rebellovw like this.
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