Speed stability: Direct Drive vs belt

YUP. Look at the race in high performance DACs. Do you really think most people could distinguish between two DAC chips that measure over 100db S/N ratio? They can't, yet engineers are constantly working on improvements to chips even though we are at the point where these improvements are not audible.

 

Speed stability is rather easy to measure, so is W&F.

 

Or they could've just brought the old design back to market with minor improvements (i.e. non-captive cables), at a much lower price, and sold them in droves, compelety dominating the sub $1K turntable market.

 

And how many users are performing such measurements of their 1200s vs a good belt-drive? Very, very few.

 

Maybe, we'll never know for certain which was the driving factor. Ask Tenchics and they'll certainly claim it was more than mere marketing. Have you compared your GR to a 1200mkII?

We could also assume that the rest of the redesign was nothing more than a marketing agenda. Then there'd be no practical reason to own a $1700 GR over a gently-used 1200Mk2.

 

I see it this way:
Belt drive = bias ply tires
Direct drive = radial tires

There is still a market for bias ply, but for 99.999% of the applications out there, Radial is better. Technology moves on. There is really no contest. Direct drive simply gets the job done more precisely, with more torque, and quieter with less effort. That being said, belt drive does look really cool. Especially the expensive offerings.

For me, there are very few things that are not debatable, and this is one of them. And no, I'm not talking about "settled science". Again, there are some excellent belt drives out there when money is no object. But for most human beings, it is. If I wanted to get fancy I'd have no problem yanking the drive system off an AT LP120 and slapping it in the same plinth whith a nice $30,000 SAT tonearm: SAT 30K+$$ TONEARM: W O R T H T O H A V E I T ? | Audiogon Discussion Forum . And it would be a really, REALLY cool plinth. But truth be told, if I had that kind of money, i'd prefer a more expensive DD system, if only because I could afford it. It certainly would not sound any better to my ears.

Of course, one reason those are so expensive can be explained by my old job --- I was a sales engineer for Compuware. We sold software for millions with a six or even seven figure annual renewal. Yet this software was INFINITELY simpler than ANY version of windows. Why so expensive? Because it had to be rock solid reliable (not really an issue with turntables and tonearms as nobody's life depends on it) and we sold a few dozen or a few hundred copies, rather than billions.

The really, really good stuff is for the guys that either don't know how to prioritize their budget, became fabulously wealthy via their own business, or their dad in Saudi Arabia sends them a million a month allowance. And a few outliers.

 

That has nothing to do with the matter at hand. You do understand that if we want to know the speed stability and W&F, someone must measure them. Never mind what TT we are talking about. It could be a good BT or a good DD; we cannot extrapolate the 'sound' from them to have to do with e.g. W&F

 

I believe what was stated in your last sentence was the big motivator. An excellent opportunity to rethink the mechanical design.

 

I have and do. I also listen to material where pitch stability issues can render the content unlistenable (I have a trained musical ear, pitch issues annoy me highly). I require accurate pitch, pitch control is also for me necessary, and turntables must be reliable and durable. And designed to be maintainable. The CBS STR 101 test record does not lie. Neither does calibrated, maintained high grade test instruments.

 

It kinda reminds me of the "digital vs Vinyl" sound quality argument. I noticed that over time the battle changed from "Vinyl sounds better than CD" to "the signal put on vinyl is not infused with volume wars level setting as it is on CD". That is a genuine argument, but it doesn't touch which format actually sounds better. It's an argument about the source material.

But I digress...

 

They make such tables in belt-drive form - the Gem Dandy Super Polytable for example.

 

In the year 2019 in which so much progress have been achieved both in analogue and in digital audio reproduction the dilemma whether direct or belt drive offers better speed accuracy is non existing IMO.
Both good belt drive and direct drive turntables can offer exceptional speed stability. My Clearaudio Ovation turntable is not in any way inferior in terms of speed accuracy to my Technics 1200G.

 

If you have Direct Drive or belt TT just check if the motor is a Brushless motor. AC motors often lose torque

 

It is great. But not isolated well enough in my house with wood floors, and my physical challenges. I also need a turntable which can be used for archival transfer work, and for normal HiFi duty. Which can also be used daily for as much as 5-8 hours when necessary (me in working mode). I love the Gem Dandy Super Polytable. But I have specific needs it doesn't totally cover on the other hand. Some compromises for me, must be made in the name of practicality. And my use case. For my use case, the main turntable has to meet those needs. No, a wall shelf is not an option either. Must also have a dust cover also. Must work for all those requirements. I am also not a fanboy, I am applications minded. I also repair and maintain many turntables and tonearms for other clientele. Must have mass, must not skip, must perform to high standard.

 

A turntable is much more than speed stability. It is a big factor, but just one of many.

 

I have a bit of a problem to understand these points. Surely there is no 'fanboy' mentality to say that if we want to know the speed stability and W&F; we must measure.

As for what we like, and like to keeep; it can be anything, we decide.

 

Well, when a BD turntable measures to within .03% of correct RPM, according to a KAB Speedstrobe, I'd say that's accurate enough.

The "Fanboy" mentality is from those here who've yet to hear a truly good belt-drive - one that does allow for pitch adjustment and stable speed. To claim a BD cannot accomplish such is pure ignorance.

 

I owned and have owned a few DD's and BD's through the tears (no RD though) and find that both can be rewarding.
I do notice that upper level BD's use some peripherals to help with speed stability.
Out board speed controllers/heavy platters (flywheel effect)/sometimes multiple belts to name a few. One will also need a strobe light and disc to set up?

 

Can't argue with that. In fact, if it used a permanent belt it would be as good as a DD.


I'm just messin' with you.

 

Misinformation regarding DD's will continue to be sprinkled out there, it caught on in the late 70's I believe and continues onward.

 

Yes, from the factory my table was just a little off, but was adjusted with two clicks of a button. Some brands supply controllers with a digital tach for reference.

 

As it will regarding belt-drives.

 

I have heard truly great belt drives. Many times. So please, Helom, back off. I've owned great belt drives too. And loved them too.

 

I never made any claims of superiority one way or another. You said that DD tables 'suck the magic out of vinyl', and I asked for clarification, because it was simply not clear to me if the magic you refer to is in the record, in the recording itself, and through what mechanism such magic can be enhanced or degraded by a TT. It just seems odd to vacillate between making claims as to the magical properties of equipment in one post, and then referring to construction specs in the next. And I'm still unclear on what reference grade means, but your comment does reinforce my inpression that it is price related; in this case, reference grade = >2K new.

 

The problem is the people that know this to be true are the one's who'll read it, whereas those that don't want to believe it or parrot what a salesman told them won't read it!!! That's why it's so tough to dispel myth.

Even if you experienced cogging of your TT motor, you probably never actually heard it! Cogging is a fact of life with electrical motors --- it "is the torque due to the interaction between the permanent magnets of the rotor and the stator slots of a Permanent Magnet (PM) machine." to steal the Wiki definition, and is an artifact of running an electric motor.

So technically all the internet "experts" are correct, and my DD's motor is "cogging away" but I've never actually heard it or anything detrimental coming out of the speakers related to it, at least anything I could definitively say "ahhh, that's cogging!" LOL

Cogging keeps getting tossed around in DD discussions, but as an owner of (many) DD turntables for 40+ years, I still don't know what it sounds like! Maybe someone can post an actual audible example of cogging on a turntable / speaker system....

On the flip side --- fluctuations in speed... whether DD or BD.... we can ALL hear that!