Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Classicolin, Sep 12, 2017.

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  1. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Luray, Virginia
    More like midlife Crisis the High Republic era Yoda would be about 400-500 years into his 900 year old lifespan.

    " Red Ferrari I must buy. Twilek waitress at the Hooters on Coruscant ,I must impress".
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  2. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Hollywood, USA
    Every Batman project from 1992 to 2004 was disappointing or completely tanked (and don't forget the millions WB lost on the Superman Lives project in 1996-1997). I credit Nolan as coming up with a way to bring back Batman in a way that was fresh and new, and it not only made big money, it got great reviews. I didn't totally love the films personally, but I recognize they were very well-made, and I bought tickets to see them all. From a business point of view, Nolan did a great job and brought new life to a franchise many thought was dead.

    I think Star Wars is far from dead, but Disney realizes the value of hiring new people to come up with new takes on the series and create new characters, new worlds, and new adventures for audiences to enjoy. I can see it as a framework for a lot of different kinds of stories.
  3. Quadboy

    Quadboy Forum Resident

    For myself ..... It was the supporting players that made Nolan's trilogy great.
    Prefer Affleck to Bale Bat anyday.
    The recent Bat movies suffered from himself and Alfred seemingly putting all the tech together.
    Gordon/Oldman having a prominent role too .......and the best supporting character being Freeman as Fox.
  4. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Luray, Virginia
    Batman Returns was a box office disappointment for sure,but Batman Forever was pretty huge and made a ton of money ,even though it was a pile of Bat guano. It made so much money they fast tracked Batman and Robin and... well...we know what happened there.

    Agreed completely about Star Wars. I don't get the whole argument that Star Wars is dead without the Skywalkers at the center of the stories. The Mandalorian is proof that audiences will still engage with Star Wars without a Skywalker even in sight. The setting itself and the iconography is the brand and probably has been for a long time. George created a universe where the possibilities are limitless.

    There is no doubt the 9 episodes that make up the Skywalker saga will always be the "spine " of Star Wars in the same way that Star Trek the original series is and will forever be the "spine" of Star Trek,but those universes and the settings will and should live on and grow beyond the initial creation and it's creators. There will be doubtlessly bumps along the way and things that don't work out,but ultimately Star Wars will flourish ,no matter what some fans seem strangely to be hoping for. It will outlive the Generation that saw that first film in 1977 ,as it should be.
  5. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Alexandria VA
    This remains wrong.

    "Batman Forever" was a big hit. It was viewed as a comeback after the relative disappointment of "Returns".

    And even though it wasn't as huge as WB would've liked, "Returns" was still the 3rd biggest hit of 1992, and it made a profit, as did "Forever".

    "Robin" is the only one that lost money...
  6. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Hollywood, USA
    The first Tim Burton Batman film cost $35 million and made $411 million; Batman Returns was a ton of trouble to make, took twice as long to shoot, and cost a whopping $80 million, but "only" wound up making $266 million. That's a big disappointment for WB, who assumed that if they spent twice as much, they had a good chance of making (say) $350M+ at the box office, but it stalled-out big time. I was on the set for the latter, at least for the days they shot at Universal, and there was a lot of chaos and craziness on that show. There's a lot of reasons why Tim Burton didn't get to do a third Batman movie.
  7. greg_t

    greg_t Senior Member

    St. Louis, MO
    Hard to call 3 movies that made over a billion each a dead franchise.
  8. Man, can somebody tell me how come Palpatine can't just do all of this destroying-the-Jedi-stuff without needing the aid of someone who will fail him everytime?

    Good lord, this movie is dumb in just about every way they could think of, short of a few Three Stooges gags!

    Then a Cameo from Han Solo, which ended well, but then - yeah, I saw The Last Jedi - I have no idea how Luke died. Holographic exhaustion?

    Then Lando shows up. A new hero at the last minute.

    The only one who was good was Chewbacca. He's good in everything he's cast.

    The last 40 minutes are so was spectacular popcorn film, but then Kylo survives this backbreaking fall to use the dark side to give life back to Rey (because the Jedi don't bring anyone back to life, because you have to cross the dark side to do it), and then bodies start disappearing. Oh, yeah, and the part where Lando saves Finn and home ****ing way that happens. No. Way.

    Lando gets a young hookup.

    But hey, better than Harry Potter. (barely) :D
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  9. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I don't know? I thought the final HP film was better in comparison to the final SW film.
  10. I'm not sure, I've only seen bits and pieces of the HP stuff, so maybe it's not a fair comparison.

    What's fair, though, is comparing the sequel to the prequel, and now that I've seen the sequel, I wonder if I was unfair on the prequel.
  11. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

    I thought that the young hookup was one of Lando's many, many unknown space daughters.
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  12. SRC

    SRC That sums up Squatter for me

    New York, NY
    Seriously? The original Harry Potter film series, while also for kids, is Shakespeare compared to the recent Star Wars trilogy. This is literally the first time I've heard randomly someone suggest that they aren't at least very well done.
    SandAndGlass, YardByrd and SJP like this.
  13. polchik

    polchik Forum Resident

    ive been waiting for you here since u mentioned elsewhere on shf that u were hittin these new sequels finally... and u delivered! lol

    its got nothing to do with whether i agree or disagree ... i just enjoy your perspective and passion!
    EVOLVIST likes this.
  14. Well, I'm sure I picked Harry Potter out of the mix because my wife and son have been watching them all. I sit down and watch pieces of them before I get tired of it (very quickly).

    My caveat should be that I simply don't like much from the fantasy genre, though I know that Star Wars straddles both sci-fi and fantasy. Perhaps I just like my fantasy with blasters and spaceships. ;) And Hobbits. Yeah, Hobbits. :)

    Thanks! I appreciate the sequels being there. Frankly, I thought I would enjoy the sequels more, but I had The Mandalorian floating through my head, so my optic might have been glazed by what is arguably the best of the post-Disney offerings. But yeah, I thought I would dig the sequels more than I did.

    I wonder, though, if the general failings of the prequels and sequels isn't the characters or the storylines, but for folks like me, who have seen the originals in the theater (and maybe you are among them), that the newer series are a victim of technology more than anything. Because now that you have a bigger budget, with greater tech, there are 100xs more laser blasts, Stormtroopers falling by the hundreds, so the next thing you know the actors are flipping all over the place, too, and any semblance of realness is out the window. There's a certain truth that's missing, even for a space western.

    But hey, even so, I was enthralled by the big space battle in The Rise of Skywalker, so I'm not impervious to eye-candy galore! I want that high-flying action! I simply wonder if the filmmakers could have brought more balance to The Force by bringing more balance to the films.
    polchik likes this.
  15. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Luray, Virginia
    Never mind,thought I was in the Mandalorian thread....

    These aren't the droids you are looking for..
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
  16. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

    The creative reputation of the Sequel Trilogy is pretty low overall - like episodes of spin off Star Trek with cameos by Spock, McCoy and Scotty in. The first six were films. The last three were movies. Personally I'm far more interested in Star Wars movies when they aren't just about a Magic Space Wizard Family Of Secret Children With Special Powers.
  17. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Luray, Virginia
    Let's be honest,none of the nine movies are flawless high art or "films" (in the elitist way some deliniate the difference between "movies" and "films"),with Empire Strikes Back maybe being the lone exception due to how it literally shifted the previous narrative on it's ear and is probably the best sequel ever made this side of The Godfather Part 2.

    The original you also could make the argument that it was an important "film" due to it's technical ground breaking nature and the fact it initiated the modern blockbuster in earnest,but the other seven (or nine counting Rogue One and Solo) are at their heart,popcorn entertainment that have their roots in the 1940s cheesy saturday morning serials ,B westerns and Flash Gordon. George made them for 12 year olds but they so happened to be enjoyable for adults.

    There's no doubt the original trilogy is iconic, but the prequels are no higher art than the sequels. The prequels may have a more "planned" feeling,but in general they aren't that well made when compared to the first two movies. The sequels,while not planned in a story sense as well as they should have been, are, at least from a technical standpoint,and an acting and directing standpoint,are well made movies. They all have their faults,and strengths and weaknesses.

    At the end of the day they are meant to be fun movies. Not high art or the pinnacle of movies. Ain't nothing wrong with that.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
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  18. polchik

    polchik Forum Resident

    my father actually gave me the novel in 77 before before seeing it (i was 9 at the time - perfect age) ... lol .... i remember being transfixed by the photos in it (they seemed like real people, in real places, doing 'real' things)..... i don't think i read it all before seeing though ... but i do remember seeing the name 'palpatine' there first .... there was such a feeling of 'reality' to it, when i look back .... it was very awe inspiring ... and i'm talking about just those few photos within the novel ....

    "only imperial stormtroopers are so precise ..."

    remember that? yeah they were to be feared for sure.


    this all changed w RotJ of course ....

    the SW universe is rather convoluted in terms of consistency lol

    i, like many, really love IV & V, and gave a pass to VI lol even though it essentially started to go off the rails for me there ...

    i think the reason the original trilogy was so popular around the world was because of it's conscious intent to create a mythological story (arc) a la joseph campbell. luke did not need to be asian for me to identify and become obsessed with his character and struggles .... (i was actually very put off with the addition of an asian character (VIII & IX) parachuted into the trilogy for reasons that just didn't seem genuine to me ... poorly written character ... that actor got shafted as far as i'm concerned. she was used (VIII) and then abused (IX) for what seems to me, social political optics. Same with FINN, who i really loved in VII ..... thought he'd become a jedi by the end of IX. nope.

    it felt like they broke down the LUKE-type character into 3 other characters (REY, FINN, POE)

    going back lol

    i think lucas was seduced by technology, in that he felt it gave him the ability to be free in a way he had only dreamed of ... ironic considering how much CGI has developed since the prequels, and that those films are actually dated because of it now ..... as well it seems to me he got drunk on his power, and was surrounded by sycophants ... i'm fascinated by limitations in the creative process .... how they can be used and often end up helping the overall end product in ways the director cannot see, while in the thick of it. kubrick, lynch, and perhaps malick, are the only big directors i can site at the moment that seems to have (had) the discipline, to not haven't gotten too lost in their autonomy LOL ... i mean look at apocalypse now ... redux and final cut .... to me, the theatrical is the best version. LOL, but hey, that's just me. look at the godfather ... he has said he was in fear of getting fired much of the time, while making it .... wild.

    back to technology ...
    i'm glad JJ / disneyLF went back and incorporated real sets along with CGI, using the best of both worlds. the new sequels certainly look and sound incredible .... (tho i really did not like the opening shot of TLJ ... that cheap looking TV movie looking zoom/camera move lol - breaking w tradition)

    i ultimately think the new sequels lack a strong vision. ironically the film that i really did not like, TLJ, is the one film out of the 3 that actually seems to have more of a singular vision, where as VII and IX seemed like stories created via committee. as much as i hate to say it ... RJ had more courage than JJ. he had the courage to tell mark hammil NO, we're doing it MY way .... or perhaps courage isn't the right word, since he had KK in his corner. but he certainly had the audacity to stick with what HE wanted you know?

    JJ ? poe was supposed to die in VII .... lets him live till the end. gets his LOST buddies to play cameos etc .... he basically tried his best to please people .... actors , fans , executives ..... imho mavericks don't make films that way.

    at the end of the day ...
    it still is what it is LOL

    i actually find all the discussions (about the new sequels), most of the time lol, more fascinating than the films themselves. and that includes youtubers like mike zeroh, and dvd overlord LOL ...

    i used to get a tad hot under the collar when this was all fresh, as it did just feel like a total betrayal to me. especially after having TEARS running down my face when i first saw TFA trailer. i think folks who criticize the 'fan boys' forget that .... that there was serious emotional investment and expectation due to that trailer .... regardless of age. grown men ... w TEARS running down their faces !!

    i nonetheless keep an open mind and will watch what disneyLF has to offer, as they seem to be getting their act together w filoni and favreau taking over the reigns there .... as they are most certainly injecting their true LOVE for, and understanding of the lore into the new offerings. I'm open to going to new places too.

    i hope they find more ways to create better drama for viewers though ... the whole no one dies or even get's wounded while battling so many bad guys be they stormtroopers or battledroids is just so boring .... i think that might be one of the reasons rogue one is at the moment my favourite of the disneyLF offerings .... it's dark and many die. lol they need to do something about the videogame-like battle sequences .... no stakes, no fear, no drama.
  19. I saw Rogue One last night. It really is the best of the Disney films. I thought, all in all, even with some typical goofballery, it was well made, well paced, and it brought back some of the nostalgia of A New Hope.

    I'm sure of it now, at least for me, give me a Star Wars product that relies upon familiarity with my childhood dreams and you probably have me hooked. Rogue One is A New Hope era, and The Mandalorian is
    Return of the Jedi era.

    It would suck if every film was in a familiar era; then again, give me several more films like Rogue One and I'm in.
  20. polchik

    polchik Forum Resident

    never thought of it in that way ! glad u enjoyed it.
  21. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Luray, Virginia
    I think it's easy to take for granted how big the stakes were for TFA. Fandom as a whole still felt burned by the prequels. The last couple Star Wars theatrical releases (the clone wars animated movie and the 3D phantom menace release) both did middling business. The franchise over the previous decade as a whole had been stuck more or less in the prequel era in terms of setting and content. It may be hyperbole to say that Star Wars as a franchise was dying,but it was in a weird state of malaise and it wasn't guaranteed that in a box office ruled by Marvel and DC Superhero fare that people would flock to the theater to see a new Star Wars movie in the numbers that ultimately did.

    It's easy now to sort of dismiss TFA now and say it was mediocre or something akin to the prequels ,but it did HUGE business,most of it domestically and set a box office domestic record that even Avengers Endgame failed to break and given the current climate and the downfall of theaters,its likely that record may never be broken.

    And despite what people are saying now,then in 2015,people loved that movie. Genuinely loved it.

    While TLJ and TROS disappointed some for both reasonable and unreasonable,er, reasons, TFA was an event which we will be unlikely to see again. and more than anything, is the reason why we have stuff like The Mandalorian to look forward to. If TFA had just done OK business I seriously doubt we'd have seen so much new material coming out over the next few years. While the Mandalorian is maintaining Star Wars and pushing it forward, it was the sequels,specifically TFA, that got the ball rolling again.
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  22. Jord

    Jord Forum Resident

    The Netherlands
    I think Force Awakens sticking close to A new hope was a good way to bring Star Wars back. People want some familiarity and a radically different movie would not have been received as well.

    TFA gave us some interesting characters with Kylo, Rey and Finn when also accommodating older fans with Han and Lea. Further supplementing the cast were interesting supporting characters like the mysterious Snoke and Maz Kanata. You wanted to know who Snoke was, how Maz got the light saber etc.

    The problem is that the sequels each tried to do their own thing. I still can't imagine how a company like Disney, with it's history of story telling didn't just make an overarching story first and then let the directors run wild.

    I wasn't wild about the Last Jedi (didn't hate it either) but the fact that the 3rd film (ROS) took a lot of time to retcon the previous film showed how much the trilogy needed more collaboration.
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  23. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    When we finally master interdimensional travel, I look forward to Rick'n'Mortying my way over to the dimension where the sequel trilogy did have a pre-planned arc that still included the return of Palpatine, Luke leaving in exile after failing Ben Solo, and Rey's lineage of evil, all wrapped in a Rose Tico-free trilogy...

    ...and reading the nerd rage in THAT universe. Speed of light? Nah. Planck's constant? No, no, nerd rage is the most universal measurement in, well, the universe. :D
  24. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Luray, Virginia
    I do think that there were elements of the trilogy that were decided at the start,mostly loosely based on some elements of George Lucas's own treatments. I think the general arc of Rey and Kylo Ren and where they'd end up ar the end of the trilogy was decided early on (i.e. Rey would end up the new beginning of the Jedi order, Kylo Ren being the reverse of Anakin's arc,i.e. starting at the dark end of the spectrum when we meet him and eventually finding some sort of redemption by the end). Our three heroes of the OT getting send offs in the reverse order of how we met them in Episode IV (Han was first to go as he was the last of the three we met,Luke second,Leia third as she was the first we met.) An ethos and asthetic that hewed closer to the original trilogy than the prequels,etc.

    There *was* a plan in place in a general sense,but either rightly or wrongly, Kathy Kennedy wanted to let each Director decide how they'd tell their chapter of the arc and gave them leeway on just how we get from point A to point B to Point C. The destination more or less was set and If you look at both Rise of Skywalker and Duel of the Fates,you see that both films more or less had similar end points for where the Galaxy and our cast are by the time credits roll. The First order was defeated,Rey died and was reborn to carry on the Jedi and Kylo Ren passed away after some measure of redemption tied to Rey.

    The thing is the plan that was in place for the trilogy was more or less thrown out the window when Carrie Fisher passed away. We will never know the full extent of how badly this affected the general direction and resolution of the trilogy. Carrie's death meant she was going to be unavailable for any reshoots for TLJ,which locked certain elements of that movie in place and likely affected any plans for reshoots overall. We will never know how TLJ may have changed if Johnson had the leeway to adjust and change things with Carrie being alive. I have a feeling things like "Mary Poppins Leia" would have either been excised from the film and replaced with something else or would have been reshot and adjusted,which may have led to other things changing. That's often how films are made and in some ways,Johnson had a handicap. He could have rewrote or cut certain scenes, but that meant potentially removing large chunks of Carrie's final performance as Leia...which was NOT going to happen.

    And theres a very good chance Colin Trevorrow would have ended up still directing and writing IX had Carrie lived, and had Carrie lived,based on Treverrow's first draft,Leia would have survived the sequels presumably to take her place as the leader of the Government that followed the fall of the First Order. Apparently it was Carrie's passing that caused the upheaval behind the scenes that led to Treverrow being let go and JJ being brought in to try and find an answer regarding Leia for IX.

    The fact of the matter is that the original trilogy didn't have a "plan" in place until about half way through filming Empire,and even that was changed during the making of ROTJ. The difference is you did have one person overseeing the three movies in George Lucas,and he was able to wallpaper over the seams well enough that only if you look closely do you realize how haphazard it really was. The sequels didn't have that one guiding hand to paper over the seams and to add insult to injury,had to deal with the sudden unexpected death of arguably the third film's main star before one minute of footage was shot. Given those two facts, it's a miracle the sequels turned out as well as they did relatively speaking.
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  25. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Luray, Virginia
    As I've pointed out elsewhere, the prequels were "planned",mostly because once George decided the first film was actually the fourth chapter of a six chapter (or nine chapter or twelve chapter saga depending on Lucas's mood circa 1979-1982), it was clear what the first three stories had to be about. Even so,a "planned " trilogy doesn't automatically mean it's good and or universally loved.

    Yes,with time and distance the prequels cred has increased and yes Revenge of the Sith is a fun film and in my opinion, better than Return of the Jedi, yet because it was " all planned" doesn't make The Phantom Menace feel any less overlong,pointless and boring for long stretches, nor does it make the first two acts of Attack of the Clones any less painful to get through. (Seriously, the Anakin/Padme "romance" is probably the worst thing in the entire series. Yes,worse than Jar Jar. No chemistry at all and its painfully clear George had no clue how to direct Hayden and Natalie).

    While I do think the prequels aren't as bad as some make them out to be I can confidently say I had a better time watching the sequels than the prequels overall upon their release,warts and all. Of course everyone is different in that regard.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
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