Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Luray, Virginia
    Yes. Absolutely. Poe has realized the difference between being a hot shot war hero and being a leader. Finn realized he can't run anymore from the fight and was willing to sacrifice himself to save his friends. And Rey realizes that she can't look to others to validate her and to teach her and be bound to her past. The future of herself and the Jedi is now in her hands and her hands alone. She doesn't have to be a part of someone else's story anymore. She is writing her own.

    And Kylo Ren has fully embraced the Dark Side. There is no redemption for him...At least not yet. For someone preaching about severing ties with the past, he let his old master distract him from the victory in front of him, and now like his father, that master will haunt him. He may have surpased his grandfather, but like his grandfather, he is trapped in a prison built on his mistakes. The difference is, with Anakin it was literal. The life suit he wore to stay alive. With Ben... It's metaphorical. He could have found a kindred spirit and redemption with Rey. He turned her away. That'll also haunt him.

    I had my issues with the movie, but character development of our core four new characters wasn't one of those issues.
  2. bluenote

    bluenote Forum Resident

    I agree. I don't know why it's so important that we know every character's back story. How much did we know about Han in the original? Or Leia? Or the Emperer? Or really any of them, besides Luke?
  3. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits and Abbie: Best Dogs Ever

    Alexandria VA
    Exactly. We eventually got backstory for Palpatine and Anakin/Vader, but Han's history remained fuzzy.

    As for Leia, we know she was a princess and involved in the Alliance, but otherwise, not much.

    At least we learned about Chewie via the Holiday Special! :D

    In the new films, we have some idea about Rey - with some mysteries still out there - and we also have some glimmers of Ren's past.

    We know Finn was taken by the First Order as a kid and raised to be a stormtrooper.

    This seems like plenty of backstory to me - and at least equivalent to what we knew of the OT characters through the 2nd film.

    People appear upset that "TLJ" didn't resolve much - neither did "ESB"!
  4. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Luray, Virginia
    Yeah, Luke's biggest delima was eventually leaving Tattoine and snagging some power converters. Rey's was fighting daily to survive. It doesn't make one character better or worse ,it just means different circumstances shapped them and played a role in how they developed within their respective first two movies.
    sunspot42 and bferr1 like this.
  5. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    United States
    The problem is not in backstory, it is in general character development. By the end of Star Wars; Han, Luke, Leia, Obi-Wan, C3p0, R2-D2, Chewie and Tarkin had complete story arcs. We were all in with these characters after just one film. We were in on Vader as soon as he walked through that doorway. We really did not even have backstory questions with these characters except Vader, and that was answered with great effect and satisfaction in Empire.

    I do not see that kind of character development with the new characters. There were purposeful questions planted and built up in Force Awakens (Rey's parents, Maz and lightsaber, Kylo's turn), which were either thrown away or never answered in Last Jedi.
    delmonaco likes this.
  6. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    United States
    I go back to it again, but I think Lucas focusing on established archetypes made the characters in Star Wars easy to understand and care about.

    Vader & Tarkin - Pure evil
    Luke - The hero's journey from humble beginnings
    Han - The scoundrel redeemed as a hero
    Leia - The damsel in distress
    Obi-Wan - Wise old mentor
    Chewie - Trusted sidekick
    C3-PO - The fool
    R2 - Lovable child

    And each one brings these roles to conclusion within the first film. Perhaps the real brilliance was then finding ways to do new and inventive things with these characters in the sequels.
    Vidiot, Rhett and Rubber65 like this.
  7. bluenote

    bluenote Forum Resident

    I think the big difference though is the original Star Wars episode IV was neatly wrapped up and brought to a satisfying conclusion with no hint that there would even be a sequel. I don't know if this was Lucas's intention, perhaps he didn't think it would do well enough to warrant a sequel?
    ianuaditis likes this.
  8. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Philadelphia, PA
    No one did, hence having Alan Dean Foster write the book Splinter of the Mind's Eye to be a low budget sequel to the original if it was not a success.
    sunspot42 and ianuaditis like this.
  9. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    San Francisco
    They did? Luke changed during the first film, and so did Han. The others? Hardly. It's very much a plot-driven exercise, not a character-driven film.

    Empire was more character-driven, which is why it's the better film. TLJ is also very character driven.
    David Campbell, Jim B. and Encuentro like this.
  10. NickCarraway

    NickCarraway Forum Resident

    Gastonia, NC
    Another "Star Wars Story" after the Solo and Kenobi films, released during the years between Rian Johnson's trilogy releases?
  11. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    For the bolded portions, you'll need to turn to the books to fill in the gaps. For example, I just finished reading "Bloodline," which answers many of the questions you raise here.
    Jim B. and Encuentro like this.
  12. Rubber65

    Rubber65 Forum Resident

    I noticed that C3po and R2 have absolutely no roles to play in the movies anymore, other than R2 powering down and displaying a map of Luke's location. Even Chewie'e role is very minimal. he's more of a backdrop. it's unfortunate cause I love these characters. Loved it though when Chewie busted Luke's door down.
  13. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Evil Twin

    Yep, its success was shocking to all, especially Lucas.

    Some of the ideas Lucas thought up just after the success of the original film were midichlorians and the backstory of 3p0 being built by a child prodigy.
    I do approve of the books as a good place to flesh out the backstory, but a line or two of exposition in the movies couldn't have hurt.
    That's one of the biggest missed opportunities. You have characters with long (or indefinite) lifespans who (except for 3p0) don't rely on the voice of a specific actor. It's a good way to bring some continuity to the series (the touch in the prequels that made it overdone was 3p0 belonging to anakin.)
    Rubber65 likes this.
  14. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Wait, are you saying the idea of midichlorians goes as far back as the late '70s?
  15. tomhayes

    tomhayes Forum Resident

    San Diego, Ca
    I thought it happened when Lucas told a person in the music department that "The Force" was caused by a virus-- and that person went into a rage and threw his MIDI keyboard into a swimming pool.
  16. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Or maybe Cloris Leachman was playing a MIDI keyboard to a guy named Ian.

    That's just dumb....
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  17. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    United States
    Not every character has to change.

    The world cared about all of the characters I mentioned by the end of the first film. That is character development. Sometimes it is just playing your role.

    I do not care about most of the characters in the new trilogy, and that is a common refrain. I basically care about Kylo and Rey, and for them, no where near the level of their counterparts from the OT.
  18. DLeet

    DLeet Forum Resident

    Chernigov, Ukraine
    Well, I expect to see such things within a film. I assume there weren't any books befor TFA, right? I was slightly upset and said "here we go again." I expected different problems and not the same old empire - rebellion paradigm...
    ianuaditis and delmonaco like this.
  19. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    There was a series of books branded "Journey to The Force Awakens" that I think came out before the movie did and was supposed to lay some sort of groundwork. But "Bloodline" was published in May 2016, after the movie came out, and was branded "In the Years Before Star Wars: The Force Awakens." Not sure if that answers your question.
    Lucas tried a different kind of conflict with the Prequels, but it didn't play as well. If not a Empire/Rebellion conflict, what would you have them do? You gotta have two factions fighting each other.
    Encuentro likes this.
  20. dprokopy

    dprokopy Forum Resident

    Near Seattle, WA
    Actually, I kinda thought the idea of an ostensibly "good" army fighting their perceived "evil" enemy, only for it to turn out both sides were puppets being controlled by the same evil genius in order to assume total power over both, to be kind of a brilliant storytelling idea. Yes, the execution was painful, but the idea itself was somewhat original.
    ianuaditis, sunspot42 and bferr1 like this.
  21. metal134

    metal134 Forum Resident

    Canton, OH, USA
    I don’t know why that quote got linked to me, but I didn’t say it, lol!
  22. Rhett

    Rhett Gettin' down and gettin' funky

    Cool City
    i agree - I'm bummed by that. I'd rather see more of Chewbacca, R2 and C3PO than Finn, and Rose. Those 2 should've died in this movie. That would've made the movie for me!
  23. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    San Francisco
    The claim was made that characters had "changed" in Star Wars. Er, not so much, apart from Luke and maybe Han. I never asserted that characters "have" to change - they absolutely don't, and some of the best stories are based around characters who don't change a bit.

    Characters don't have to change or develop at all for an audience to care about them. Not a requirement. And in Star Wars, at least the first film, they mostly didn't.

    I cared a lot about Rey and Finn in TFA and in TLJ. Probably Rey more in the latter, because her arc was better-developed in the latest.

    I think where this film fell down was in not having Finn reunite with Rey at some point, as they had chemistry together. Maybe have him slip away from the rebel cruiser and rendezvous with the Falcon on its way to Snoke and try to talk her out of it.

    I think Poe should have ran off with Rose to try to find the codebreaker - with Leia out of commission, Poe's contact back aboard the rebel cruiser could have been C3PO, which would have given him something to do.

    You could then maybe have the Falcon come across an empty lifepod from the destroyed First Order ship on its way to the rendezvous point, and have Finn come up with a plan to slip aboard Snoke's ship using it. Then he could turn up to try to rescue Rey, only to get caught and taken to Snoke's chamber to be tortured, and provide the distraction Kylo needed to give Snoke the old chop.

    Then the three of them would have to fight Snoke's guards. And then Finn and Rey would fight Kylo, who'd get away thru some secret passage out of Snoke's chamber, maybe to his private escape craft. With the ship cracking up, Finn would lead Rey to the nearest hanger bay, where they'd encounter the captured Poe and Rose and save them from Phasma and the stormtroopers. Finn, Poe and Rose would escape in the shuttle but Rey would be cut off and have to escape in a tie fighter, which she'd use to rendezvous with the Falcon. The rest of the flick could proceed pretty much the same way.
    David Campbell likes this.
  24. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Evil Twin

    Yes, it would seem so:

    (scroll to end of article for 'behind the scenes' section.)
    bferr1 likes this.
  25. Lord Summerisle

    Lord Summerisle Forum Resident

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