Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. Yeah, I thought The Rise of Skywalker was just about as poor as The Last Jedi. Perhaps it's Star Wars overload: three movies in three nights, as I felt the fun factor fading. It wrapped up fairly well, and the battle scene against the Empire fleet was neat; still, there was too much fluff and predictability to raise a pulse.

    At first I thought that Han Solo cameo was going to be stupid, but it ended well. That was a great line at the end. Seems familiar. :D

    I'll watch the Solo film, but I think I'll wait about a week.
     
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  2. Spitfire

    Spitfire Senior Member

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    Pacific Northwest
  3. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    Very interested to hear what you think. For my part, it reminded me very much of reading all the old books back in the '90s.
     
  4. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    And just to bring this (quite old) thread up to date: no less than Marcia Lucas is slamming the sh!t out of the J.J. Abrams movies in a new book about former Star Wars producer Howard Kazanjian:

    “I Like Kathleen. I always liked her,” Marcia Lucas says in Rinzler’s book, “Howard Kazanjian: A Producer’s Life.” “She was full of beans. She was really smart and really bright. Really wonderful woman. And I liked her husband, Frank. I liked them a lot. Now that she’s running Lucasfilm and making movies, it seems to me that Kathy Kennedy and J.J. Abrams don’t have a clue about ‘Star Wars.’ They don’t get it. And JJ Abrams is writing these stories — when I saw that movie where they kill Han Solo, I was furious. I was furious when they killed Han Solo. Absolutely, positively there was no rhyme or reason to it. I thought, You don’t get the Jedi story. You don’t get the magic of ‘Star Wars.’ You’re getting rid of Han Solo?”

    Yikes... :eek:

    ‘Star Wars’ Editor Marcia Lucas Slams Kathleen Kennedy and J.J. Abrams: ‘They Don’t Have a Clue’

    In fairness to Disney and Ms. Kennedy, I think the only way Harrison Ford agreed to do the film was a) he got $20 million dollars upfront, b) he got 5% of the gross, and c) they had to kill off his character in the movie.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. FACE OF BOE

    FACE OF BOE Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Be interesting to hear her thoughts on the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy.
     
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  6. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Funny seeing this thread pop up after recently seeing the new Dune movie. Talk about a director with a vision vs paint by numbers ala most of the recent Star Wars movies.
     
  7. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
    Yeah, apparently the late Mr. Rinzler did not ask Marcia about that. I would bet that in her 1983 $50 million dollar settlement from George, no doubt there was a non-disparagement/non-disclosure clause in there where she couldn't say too much about him, the money, or the conditions. I'm guessing that almost 40 years later, nobody cares and she can say what she wants.

    Wikipedia added another note today:

    In J.W. Rinzler's posthumous final book Howard Kazanjian: A Producer's Life, Lucas criticized the current Star Wars films, saying Kathleen Kennedy and J.J. Abrams "don't get it", and was furious at the deaths of Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and the lack of explanation for Rey's powers.

    That's an interesting observation, and there certainly are some plot holes with the recent films. I'd be more curious to find out what George thought about the recent Star Wars films, particularly the bombs like Solo. They've said that he liked Mandalorian quite a bit and was on the set and enjoyed the tour of the new ILM Stagecraft giant background screen technology, which recreates locations and sets without having to leave the soundstage.
     
  8. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
    I didn't think the recent films were as bad as a lot of fans did, but I concede they don't have the "repeatability" of the original 1970s/1980s films. I'm like, "aaaaaaa, I saw 'em, I'm moving on."
     
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  9. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I about half enjoyed the new SW films. Rogue One and Force Awakens have been my two favorites, the rest are pretty forgettable. I did enjoy parts of the Mandolorian series as well.

    It's just a striking comparison when you compare filmmakers like Villeneuve doing science fiction (Arrival, Blade Runner 2049, Dune) to what we've mostly gotten from Disney Star Wars. I get it, his movies haven't made nearly the bank the SW flicks have, but talk about artistic vision and good filmmaking vs mostly formulaic popcorn flicks despite being similar genres.
     
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  10. saturdayboy

    saturdayboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    She basically summarized my feelings about the sequels: whether you like them or not, they are not the Star Wars that George created.
     
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  11. Squealy

    Squealy Forum Hall Of Fame

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    Vancouver
    No, elsewhere in the book she says she burst into tears after watching The Phantom Menace because she thought it was so bad.

    https://twitter.com/jediscum83/status/1439707645439578116
     
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  12. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
    Haven't received the book, but I've ordered it.

    The people I worked with at ILM for a few months told me that (because of the divorce settlement) Marcia Lucas still owned C Building on Kerner Blvd. in San Rafael, where I worked for the first third of 2004. All the time I was there, I referred to the massive, ornate, $250,000 hand-carved wooden staircase in the lobby as "The Marcia Lucas Memorial Staircase," which they found amusing.

    [​IMG]

    Lucas literally told me that he was very tired and sad from constantly being criticized by fans on the internet -- this was years before the phrase "toxic fandom" was bandied about -- and I totally agree with Hamill that it's shocking how crazy internet fans can be.

    But in the case of Marcia Lucas, she has a lot of cred and I think makes good points. I also really, really dislike the prequels... and in fairness to the recent films, they're at least better than that (to me).

    Yeah, I totally agree with that. I don't think they're terrible movies, but they're kind of a shadow on the wall of something better, sort of a slick imitation with a lot of money thrown at it. I'm sure J.J. Abrams is very hurt by the whole thing, because it's rare in Hollywoo to have a rich, Oscar-winning person at the level of Marcia Lucas slam crap out of somebody else's work. Guaranteed, they're having meetings at Disney about this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
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  13. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    Marcia is more than entitled to her opinion, and she has more credibility to talk about this than the usual suspects in the toxic fandom, ( and I fully expect said toxic fandom to rally around these comments as "proof" that the sequels were the worst movies ever made and some crime against humanity. ). That being said, she apparently is ignorant about certain matters regarding the sequels. Things aren't as cut and dry as Marcia seems to think they are. I.E. she seems to be under the assumption that JJ and Kathleen Kennedy gleefully took an axe to the original trilogy heroes in order to get them out of the way a ruin childhoods in the process. I sincerely doubt that was the intention of anyone behind these films.


    I'm sure the people in charge of the sequels would have loved to have had Harrison Ford back as Han for the majority of the trilogy, and Princess Leia was supposed to survive Episode IX...and aspects beyond their control ensured that both didn't happen. Harrison wanted out and Carrie died. Sometimes you have to work with what you have, and recasting would have gone down like a lead balloon. So you have to kill off Han Solo and ultimately had to kill off Leia.As for Luke Skywalker, George's arc for him for his proposed sequels was pretty close to what we got, including his ultimate fate. Only the timing would have been different. Also, Luke is still around as a force ghost...so he's not really gone forever. And as we have seen with the Mandalorian, there are ways around that if you really need to use Luke Skywalker. There is a blank canvas of about 30 years in universe to tell stories between the OT and the sequels.

    Also, strangely enough she failed to mention that The Force Awakens was co written by Lawrence Kasdan. He helped set up the trilogys trajectory with JJ. The man cowrote Empire and Jedi with George. Its a safe bet he has a pretty darned good idea what Star Wars is.

    There are legit criticisms to be had over how those three films came out, but I think Marcia is being a little bit unfair. My opinion of course.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
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  14. Shoehorn with Teeth

    Shoehorn with Teeth Romans 6:23

    Location:
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    I think Marcia has some strong points. It's clear watching the Disney sequels that they had no idea where to take the characters or the story. They kept bringing back legacy characters only to kill them off or make them into bumbling, unlikable jerks. That's not what Star Wars fans wanted to see and it soured a lot of people, myself included. Rogue One was great but everything else has been mediocre to downright awful. The prequels weren't great either and George suffered from not having a collaborative team around him. He's a great idea man but not great at execution.
     
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  15. Squealy

    Squealy Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Vancouver
    Yes, Harrison Ford wanted Han Solo to die -- in 1983. But is there actually any confirmation that he demanded Han die as a condition of being in The Force Awakens? Or is it just something people assume? I wasn't there of course but.... it seemed to me that he participated in the movie quite happily. How badly can he have "wanted out" of a franchise he hadn't been part of for over 30 years?
     
  16. Pizza

    Pizza With extra pepperoni

    Location:
    USA
    It’s especially odd since he’s willing to appear in The Expendables 3. Another Star Wars movie? Only if you kill me.
     
  17. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    Well the incredibly large paycheck for TFA and the percentage of the gross that was in his contract certainly helped lure him back. Also it was such a forgone conclusion that Han was slated to die in Episode VII even when George was working on it. His treatment had Han be killed much in the same fashion that we got in the released film. It was sort of a given that to get Harrison to return , Han had to die.

    It's telling when George went to Mark and Carrie first to approach them to return for the sequels and went to Harrison last. There was a very good chance he was going to say no and he wanted at least two of his three original leads locked in just in case. Plus he likely hoped getting the other two to agree would sort of convince Harrison to return.

    So many people want to be in denial that it was all JJ Abrams fault , or Kathleen Kennedy's fault or even George's fault, but the reason we lost Han Solo was Harrison Ford wanted it that way. In fact, if Carrie hadn't passed, I doubt he would have even returned for his very brief cameo in IX. He did it out of respect for Carrie and to " fill in " for her original role in helping turn Ben Solo back to the light and complete her characters story.

    I mean...if Harrison Ford wanted to continue as Han Solo past VII and be in the whole trilogy, im sure Rian Johnson and Collin Treverrow would have loved to have worked with him and written for Han. Of all the three original trilogy lead characters Han was probably the most flexible from a story standpoint and he could be an active part of the action while not overshadowing the three new leads in the way that, say, Luke Skywalker would have.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
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  18. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    The Expendables was a short role. Probably a weeks worth of filming at the most. Commiting to more Star Wars meant at least three consecutive years of months at a time. Different sort of role and would have required a lot of time. That's one of the reasons he probably prefers Indy to Han. Less time to commit . Since Star Wars movies are made in threes it would have been a significant block of time.
    Also, if one remembers, he got pretty badly injured on the set of TFA and sued Bad Robot I believe. Even if he initally possibly theoretically was open to do the entire trilogy, that incident would have likely changed his mind anyway. It's a minor miracle he came back for IX.
     
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  19. Squealy

    Squealy Forum Hall Of Fame

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    Vancouver
    Well certainly it doesn’t appear that he tried hard to convince them not to kill him off. I’ve just never heard either him or any of the producers actually say he wouldn’t do the movie unless Han died. It’s almost like they wrote it that way thinking it’s what he would want. (I’m not looking to blame someone other than him, just wondering if he was really as eager for Han to die as people think.)

    Harrison was in a very different position by the time of TFA than he was when A list leading man superstardom was calling him in the early 80s. He will always be an icon but it had been a long time since he’d had a present day hit. Going back to his old characters was pretty much his best option. I could see him being hesitant just because of his age, though.
     
  20. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    Yeah. Its hard to believe the guy is almost 80! He is pretty fit and spry for his age...but he's still 79 years old. He was 74 going on 75 when he made TFA. Appearing as Han for three more Star Wars movies at that age in a pretty physically demanding role was going to be a tall proposition in any case. It sucked that Han had to die...but honestly the circumstances almost dictated it.
     
  21. BDC

    BDC Forum Resident

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    Tacoma
    I liked the prequils a lot better than the 3 after......Thought the latter 3 were dumb action movies...
     
  22. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    It's not the fact that he died, it's that it's so badly written and a pointless death.

    It wouldn't be bad if he sacrificed himself to save his friends or family.
     
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  23. shark shaped fin

    shark shaped fin Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I fully vented on the sequels in the prequels vs sequels thread a couple of weeks ago and won’t post that again here, but to boil it down: the prequels’ flawed but singular vision and coherent, ultimately bleak storyline is an easy win for me over the emptier, corporate, “trying to please everyone” style of the sequels. Once you remove the Rey/Kylo storyline, the movies are so incoherent in terms of having a narrative through-line that it’s frankly amazing. The fact that the first two are watchable is due to the positives of the series (most of the acting, some of the space-battlin’), but I think TROS is a sloppy disaster.

    What I didn’t mention in that other thread is Rogue One, because I’d had yet to rewatch it. Now that I have, I can say it really is genuinely excellent. You’d never know about its troubled production history. It’s a thrilling story with constant momentum, directed with total confidence and great style. And that cast, jeez.
     
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  24. tommy-thewho

    tommy-thewho Forum Resident

    Location:
    detroit, mi
    Agree with Shark.

    Rogue One is my favorite off all the newer Star Wars.
     
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  25. Lord Summerisle

    Lord Summerisle Forum Resident

    The best thing about the sequels is Rey's theme and the scene with Yoda. Horrible movies.
     
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