Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    Which is a fair point. It worked for me. I thought having him attempt to reach his son with the full knowledge he was probably going to Die served the story better than some cliched going out in a blaze of glory sacrifice play, But I understand why it didn't work for everyone. I would have preferred it if he didn't die at all...but again that was Harrison's decision. I thought Han's death scene and the follow up scene in Episode IX was well done. But of course YMMV.

    Marcia seems less upset with how it was executed and more upset with the very idea or concept of Han (or Luke) dying. I wish she would have been more nuanced with her criticism and actually expressed and explained why she believed what she believed rather than the fairly generic " JJ and Kathleen don't get Star Wars and killing Han Solo ruined everything". I honestly would like to hear from her why she feels that way rather than a vague regurgitation of the Fandom Menace's usual talking points.
     
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  2. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits and Abbie: Best Dogs Ever

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    But Han did sacrifice himself to save his son.

    Not pointless at all...
     
  3. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

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    UK
    He didn't, I guess we have to agree to disagree, it was pointless. He didn't save his son, his son still went to the darkside, it was some pathetic attempt to impress Snoke he was really bad.
     
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  4. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

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    I read Marcia's comments differently. She does say his death served no purpose. She might have been alright with it if it had.
     
  5. twicks

    twicks Forum Resident

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    Detroit
    The scene at the end of Force Awakens where the lightsaber flies into Rey's hand was an exciting moment. That's about it.
     
  6. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

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    UK
    They get worse as times goes on, with a bit of distance, what a waste.
    I think TLJ might age better, at least from a script point of view it holds up.

    The fact the notion of wiping them from continuity was a thing says a huge amount.

    And they could do that, using the time travel portal things that were in Rebels and are canon. They killed billions in the sequel trilogy so it would be justified.
     
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  7. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    Talk of doing such things is usually fan hopes and dreams rather than anything studios are really interested in doing. If I missed a news story I'd be very surprised.
     
  8. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits and Abbie: Best Dogs Ever

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    Alexandria VA
    But eventually Ben did come around.

    Just because Han didn't immediately "turn" Ben doesn't mean that his death lacked impact.
     
  9. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

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    UK
    Nah, not having that. Weal argument. His eventual change of heart was nothing to do with killing his dad. It was a pointless death. Bad writing.

    And if he did die it should have been very moving but how they did it, in the midst of a battle in a very confusing way, left the viewer unmoved mostly. The character deserved a lot better, make it moving and mean something there and then.
     
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  10. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

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    Marcia Lucas was exactly right. Han's death is utterly unearned in the narrative - and as soon as I saw the bridge (what is it about bridges without safety rails? The designers of these places clearly violate Health & Safety regulations) - I knew that Han wasn't going to leave that bridge alive. In the other films (PM and Star Wars), a character we are introduced to in that film dies, whereas for TFA it's someone we've known for 40 years. Presumably they killed Han because Harrison Ford wanted the death he was cruelly denied by Lucas in Jedi. Narratively, there was no reason but to fulfill the trope that Someone Gotta Die In The First Film In The Trilogy : in Phantom, Qui-Gonn certainly wasn't planning on dying, and in Star Wars Obi's decision was a surrender, whereas in TFA, it wasn't even a Jedi. The JJ films are cowardly, bland, and utterly illogical in many areas.
     
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  11. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Evil Twin

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  12. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits and Abbie: Best Dogs Ever

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    Alexandria VA
    I give up.

    I think it was a meaningful death - and very moving. I freakin' cried, and I rarely cry at movies!
     
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  13. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits and Abbie: Best Dogs Ever

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    Alexandria VA
    I like all 9 movies in various ways, and "TPM" has some good moments.

    But a lot of it is pretty painful.

    Someone earlier stated that the Sequel Trilogy wasn't "George's 'Star Wars'". Well, neither was the PT - not in spirit, at least.

    The ST felt more like the OT than the PT did.

    The PT movies felt stiff, clunky and only sporadically exciting.

    George seemed more hung up on the technology behind the filmmaking than the end product's story and characters...
     
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  14. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    I think it stands up better with the payoff in Rise of Skywalker. But I'm with you, it definitely wasn't without meaning.
     
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  15. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits and Abbie: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Funny thing is that when I saw "Force Awakens" the first time, Han's death didn't get to me. I think I was too shocked for it to hit me.

    Second time I watched the movie, though, it became more impactful, perhaps because I knew the whole picture of the movie better.

    Still brings the proverbial lump to my throat when I watch the movie!
     
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  16. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    George is a wonderful boss and an amazing filmmaker, hands-down the director with the broadest knowledge of post-production I've ever met in my life. He's a better editor than most editors and is blessed with impeccable timing in terms of visual images. But I think even he would admit that writing is not his greatest strength, particularly snappy dialogue. And Lucas was far better with strong collaborators around to argue with him and reign in the crazier ideas and get everything back on track. Without that... train goes off track.

    Carrie Fisher was interviewed in 2016 right after she had finished filming The Last Jedi over the summer, and said, "the previous film had a big role for Harrison, and he got a great death scene. The next film will be Mark's film and he'll be the main focus, but the final film in the trilogy is going to be all mine, and I'm really looking forward to it." Of course, she suddenly passed away in December, and all those plans were scuttled. We'll never know what Episode IX might have been, had Fisher lived and been able to see her character Princess Leia's story all the way through.

    It was very clear that Harrison Ford had F.U. money and had already made 30-40 films in his career, and didn't give a crap about doing any more Star Wars films. I think he felt he went out with a bang, and that worked fine for what he wanted. I still think the greatest moment in that entire film is when somebody doubts the force and the ancient legends, and he simply replies, "It's true... all of it." And it's done in such a believable way, you don't discount it in the slightest. It's a great bit. But a few great bits don't make the whole film. You'd need several dozen of them -- as the original Star Wars and Empire had -- to make it really memorable.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
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  17. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    Yeah, they aren't erasing the the sequels. They were Carrie Fisher's last performances as Leia and her last on screen appearances in general, and wiping them from continuity would be a slap in her face. Its pointless anyway. Harrison isn't coming back to play Han again and you might get Hamill to return theoretically but I doubt he would want to do a do over trilogy without them. If he does appear as Luke again it will be either more Mandalorian or perhaps in one of the other future Disney plus shows. They aren't going to recast the original trilogy characters in order to just give them the one last grand adventure some people expected the Sequels to be. That story is done and it is what it is. For better or worse.

    The most that the ones who dislike the sequels can hope for is new stories set before and long after the sequel period of time with new characters and settings. They can in theory either work around them or do what George and Dave Feloni did with the various animated shows and the prequels era. I'm convinced that much of the reason so many now look upon the prequels more favorably these days is because those series fleshed out the era and those characters in ways George failed to in his films. With that added context, the prequels do work better. Who is to say the same couldn't be done for the Sequel era?

    Either way it makes no sense to undo three billion dollar grossing movies to appease a loud and mostly toxic minority of fans who just can't move on beyond the sequels and let those movies "ruin" Star wars for them. Its a simple matter to just ignore them and focus on the other parts of the franchise they do enjoy. That's most people. Even most who didn't care for these last three have simply moved on and left them in the past." Erasing "them would just confuse the general audience and only reward the toxic parts of the fandom, who would probably still be complaining and squeeling no matter what Lucasfilm does.
     
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  18. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

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    Pennsylvania
    If I had a dollar for every time you referred to those who don't like the new trilogy as "toxic"...
     
  19. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    If I remember correctly he wanted others to direct the prequels and only directed them himself because the people who he asked (Ron Howard being one of them) turned him down. I wonder if the same thing happened when he began workshopping the sequels. Perhaps he asked some people, they balked and with the realization that if he were to produce the Sequels he would have to probably direct them. again too. Maybe that realization along with his age and status as a newlywed father pushed him to consider selling out to Disney.

    That's why I am willing to cut Episode IX more slack than it probably deserves. Carrie's death pretty much scuttled all the work put into IX. People who constantly harp about the sequels not being planned keep forgetting that Carrie's death would have upset whatever the game plan was anyway. They could have theoretically pushed the movie back a year...but if they had, it's still a good chance Episode IX STILL would not be out because of Covid. So ultimately I guess it worked out for the best at the end of the day.

    And yeah, that scene you mention from TFA was one of the best, if not THE best scene in that film and possibly the entire trilogy. Those that complain that Han had no character development seem to overlook that the full of himself, cynical non believer of the Force we met in 1977 had given way to a world weary and experienced guy who have seen with his own eyes he was wrong. "It's True. ALL of it."
     
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  20. twicks

    twicks Forum Resident

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    They could have kept working with the Duel Of The Fates script even without Carrie, no?
     
  21. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    And if I had a dollar for all of those times you and others assume I'm talking about EVERYONE who dislikes the new trilogy as being toxic...

    If you actually have read any of my posts over the last two or three years it's clear I'm only talking about certain fans. It's people who act like the new trilogy was some personal affront to them and demand that Lucasfilm apologize to them personally and thinks they are owed something. Whether that's content catered specifically to them or demanding Lucasfilm decanonize the sequels to please them or just in general acting like spoiled children.

    If that's not you....then I'm not talking about you or anyone that just didn't like the movies and have long moved on with their lives. If it does...well...I'm sorry I offended you.
     
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  22. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    They did....and apparently Colin Treverrow couldn't hack it without Leia. So thats why he was let go.
     
  23. twicks

    twicks Forum Resident

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    Detroit
    Have you read Secrets Of The Force yet? According to that Colin was happy with his script, but Kathy Kennedy was not and pulled the plug.

    Presumably she objected to more than just how he handled Leia.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
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  24. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

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    Pennsylvania
    I get it, that doesn't change the fact that you harp on those fans nonstop. Their opinions matter just as much as yours, and I can't help but think it's your way of devaluing said opinions.

    I didn't hate the new trilogy but recognized it had a ton of flaws. I liked Rise of Skywalker more than TLJ but neither matched the excitement and thrill of TFA.
     
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  25. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    Okay maybe that was the case..and? I'm not saying they couldn't do something better than Rise of Skywalker....but that first draft of Duel of the Fates...I don't think it was much better. There were parts that were good, but a lot of stuff that was worse than bringing Palpatine back. If subsequent drafts weren't improved than I see why Kennedy let him go. Doesn't excuse TROS...but I still think we dodged a bigger bullet. YMMV of course.
     
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