Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

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  1. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Well I'm sorry but someone who unironically thinks George or Kathy or JJ or Rian "ruined their childhood "...I kinda think they shouldn't be taken seriously or have their opinions listened to. I admit I do harp on them more than I should perhaps...but whenever I hear anyone float the idea of "erasing " the sequels to please these people...I admit it sets me off.

    And yes...the trilogy was a missed opportunity no doubt.
     
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  2. twicks

    twicks Forum Resident

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    Detroit
    I think I'd prefer Trevarrow's script as currently written to the total stupidity of Rise Of Skywalker. "Somehow, Palpatine has returned!"
     
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  3. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

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    I agree that there's no point rewriting them or taking them out of history : that said, the narrative of the sequels was a hopelessly incoherent lasagne of nonsense. They had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and Lucasfilm blew it. It's not toxic to point out the sequels are - plot wise - nonsensical idiocy. Lucasfilm didn't make films with these - they made release dates. A deadline is temporary : a bad movie is forever. Fundamentally, TFA and ROTS were made by a committee that didn't know what story they wanted to tell, and told it badly . It brings me no joy to see such terrible films attached to the Star Wars universe.
     
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  4. YardByrd

    YardByrd rock n roll citizen in a hip hop world

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    If you're not using the "toxic" trope, you're utilizing the tired pejorative "Fandom Menace" repeatedly to tar those who dislike the Disney sequels. That's a broad brush and I don't see the nuance and distinction between these fans and those fans who think Kennedy & Co. are clueless. Disney didn't ruin my childhood, but they certainly don't know how to make Star Wars flicks. Some of the worst movies I've ever seen. I'll gladly claim membership in the Fandom Menace if that opinion warrants it.
     
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  5. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    People felt and still feel the exact same way about the prequels. So thats nothing new. Heck some would argue that Return Of the Jedi sacrificed quality and satisfying conclusion for the sake of profit. There are STILL people that are still sore over Return of the Jedi and Ewoks. Robert Meyer Burnett (a film maker and YouTube geek personality and frequent co host of The John Campea show) has repeatedly shared that his most disappointing experience in a movie theater was Return of the Jedi and while he doesn't like the sequels or prequels overall, he still stands by ROTJ being a bigger disappointment to him than those films.

    But....there are people who love the prequels and always have loved the prequels, people who think Return of the Jedi is the best Star Wars movies, people who liked TFA and TLJ and, Yes, people who loved Rise of Skywalker. No one is going to agree on everything...and that's ok.

    Which is why it's better to support what you like and ignore what you don't and not waste time or breath seething over things that didn't turn out like you hoped they would. Life's too short. What's done is done.
     
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  6. shark shaped fin

    shark shaped fin Forum Resident

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    I really think the key problem is, unlike the prequels, the sequels simply don’t have a sense that they are truly a continuation of any story that needed to be told. They don’t feel like a conclusion, they feel like a spinoff. And they feel both overstuffed (in terms of way too many characters) and kind of empty (in terms of limited imagination.

    To the former point, in the original trilogy once we meet our core cast we only meet 3-4 crucial new players in the next two films and they’re successfully integrated into the ongoing story. They don’t feel like a detour. They exist to serve and support the main narrative, the main narrative doesn’t stop so we can hang out with them.

    On the latter point, the films Abrams directed just really expose the fact that creatively he can only take what others have done and put the Abrams spin on it, which is why Mission Impossible: III feels like a special, lengthy episode of Alias, and why Star Trek Into Darkness is just a hodgepodge of ideas taken from prior ST films, and tonally aiming for The Dark Knight and falling short.

    A more minor point, but some of the acting in the sequels starts to feel very “winking at the audience”, standing outside the material. Whatever one may think of the prequel trilogy or even the original films, every actor involved was invested in taking the story Lucas created (and the galaxy he created) with total seriousness. This room for plenty of humor but it didn’t feel like a nod to those in the audience who needed to have the stories undercut. That type of humor can work and for example Domhnall Gleeson really brings it to the role of General Hux, but that's also a good example of a fine performance that doesn't really fit.

    One point I'd bring from the other thread to this one is how the Emperor's return in TROS betrayed Lucas' vision that the prophecy about Anakin was true: he would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force, it just happened a lot later than anyone anticipated. but with the Emperor apparently just falling down the shaft and injuring himself a bit and surviving the Death Star being vaporized, well...that prophecy was also vaporized.
     
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  7. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

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    But the explanation of this was perfect... "I dunno, cloning?"
     
  8. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    Taken from some of the 1990s novels but not implemented as well. If they'd had that little plot point hanging over the whole trilogy instead of just thrown in for the last movie, it would have been better.

    Palpatine | Wookieepedia | Palpatine reborn
     
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  9. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    In essence they sort of are. I've come to view them as a coda. There's Episodes 1-6 which is the main story, and 7-9 which is an addendum to that. They sort of are their own thing and really should have been an Episode 1, 2 and 3 of its own saga. Instead of a continuation of the Skywalker saga, the approach should have been it being a, well, sequel to the Skywalker saga. That story was over. This trilogy should have been the next story set in that universe but mostly independent of the Skywalker saga up to that point. Making it a direct continuation sets up an expectation that outside of going back in time to the mid to late 80s or early 90s and getting Mark, Harrison and Carrie still in their prime to make three more movies, was never going to be met. A "Star Wars Episode VII" sets up a different type of expectation than , Say, " Star Wars Book two, Episode 1" in hindsight, it was a mistake.

    I think Lucasfilm/Disney felt like they had to some how "make up" for the prequels but they wanted to also "reboot" the saga and clear the slate to tell stories beyond the Skywalker saga. But they also knew people wanted Episodes 7, 8, 9 and seeing Luke, Han and Leia again.So they tried to do all three at once and ultimately it let people down. They tried to please everyone across the board and quickly found out that was impossible.
     
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  10. twicks

    twicks Forum Resident

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    It's hard to believe that it never occurred to anyone, not even Lawrence Kasdan, that audiences might not like learning that all of the victories from the OT were essentially meaningless. The Empire survived, the Emperor lived, Solo was a deadbeat dad, etc.
     
  11. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

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    Pretty sure it did occur to someone, and they got over-ruled in favour of another explosion.
     
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  12. Jim B.

    Jim B. Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    That was the worst crime. Nonsensical plots, poor acting, zero character development etc etc but all the effort to destroy the Death Star(s) and then in TROS it's 'oh look, here's another 2000 Death Stars' just made all the deaths and sacrifices completely pointless.

    And all just for a big ending.

    TROS scene to scene is just ridiculous. There is hardly a scene that isn't badly written nonsense.
     
  13. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    To be fair though, if everything was still hunky dory, there would be no conflict and without conflict you don't have a movie. So things would have to have turned to **** for the OT heroes to some degree. If the story were to continue past that final shot of Return of the Jedi, "happy ever after "wasn't going to cut it. Our OT heroes would have had to face some sort of reversal of fortune. Which is why the sequels should have been an actual sequel story to the Skywalker saga and not a literal continuation...but again they went the sort of a reboot, sort of a continuation route.

    Granted they could and should have not made The First Order a complete and utter copy of the Empire, and bringing back Palpatine was a sign of desperation to try and please after TLJ split people and the powers that be wanted to pack as much fan service into IX as they could. Thus....Palpatine returns! There were ways to make things bad for the good guys without rehashing the old conflict verbatim. The 90s EU novels got a ton of millage out of our heroes continuing to battle remnants of the Empire AND a cloned Palpatine, and ultimately Lucasfilm thought they could replicate that to a degree. They were ultimately mistaken.
     
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  14. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

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    It's not hard to get inspiration as to what they could have done - just look at history with what has happened after a dictatorship has fallen, and stick it in space. Rival splinter factions of now unemployed Empire guys move into the power vacuum and battle to control the universe etc etc.
     
  15. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    Exactly what happened in the books. The sequels skipped all of that and went right to a reformed Empire that, in fairness, is at least a possibility after several decades of power struggle.
     
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  16. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
    Boy, this Marcia Lucas thing has really thrown gasoline on the "Toxic Fans" fire. :laugh:

    [​IMG]
     
  17. drumzNspace

    drumzNspace Forum Resident

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    [​IMG]
     
  18. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    ...and your point is?

    Yeah it was an awkward scene. I get it. It looks a little silly. She was pulling herself back to the ship and it's poorly illustrated. But it's, like 5 seconds of screen time. If that.. The rest of her performance in the sequels was fine. She enjoyed making the two she made and was excited to film IX which would have been her spotlight. She was an enthusiastic supporter of making these films and even had a hand in writing her dialogue in Episode VIII. So I guess because of one bad shot, her whole final performances needs to be thrown away. Probably because it upsets certain sensibilities. Sure.

    While we are already on that subject...

    I think the shot of Mark Hamil in a diaper floating in a tank of goop in Empire looks a bit silly. It's obviously demeaning of Luke Skywalker. Let's toss that movie away too. While we are at it, having our heroes walk around in a forest with little people in obvious little teddy bear costumes looks stupid . Let's get rid of Return of the Jedi too. We can't have our heroes be demeaned like that. What the heck was George thinking? We demand REALISM and seriousness in our Star Wars.

    Now...actually come to think of it...there's that shot in the original Star Wars where its obvious that there is a dude wearing a devil costume in the Mos Eisleys cantina. So lame and silly and cheap. So stupid! Oh...and also remember when Luke is attacked by the sand people. There's an obvious shot where they looped the film so it looks like the tuskin raider raised his staff twice...but its obvious they just reversed the film! So cheap. You know what? Let's get rid of that movie too.

    I'm not even going to go into every possible nitpick of the prequels that could disqualify those films from our high standards of quality.


    So....yeah. nice try.
     
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  19. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Its probably the first time Marcia Lucas has ever mattered to the usual online trolls on YouTube and Reddit. Suddenly she is their hero. Not surprising.
     
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  20. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    Which is kinda what happened...if one pays attention. Granted they didn't make it as clear as they should have had and they should not have relied on the external materials surrounding the movies to build that up.

    Again, they should have spent more time in the movie perhaps explaining what the dynamics between the New Republic, The First Order and the Resistance were, because in essence what the above quoted post is actually what the First Order was intended to be. They are a fanatical imperial remnant bent on restoring the old order by whatever means necessary.

    However JJ cut few filmed scenes and didn't film a few others that did go into this in more depth. Probably because one of the biggest complaints of the prequels were all the politics in Episode 1 and 2, and he didn't want to bog the audience down and get to the "fun" parts. So to the casual eye, it looks like the Empire just continued on unabated by Palpatine's death and our heroes didn't win at all. There was about 30 years of relative peace but that was poorly communicated.

    After all Episode VII was Lucasfilm and Disney's big statement firmly showing the audience that they "got" Star Wars and that there would be no "boring "political stuff in their Star Wars movies. The loudest voices of ire against the prequels made it clear they didn't want that stuff in Star Wars anymore going forward and Disney was going to oblige. Episode VII was their olive branch to those fans.

    The thing is...its clear they needed a little bit of political stuff in Star Wars after all. Sometimes you do have to spell it out and say "Ok...here is the set up. This is how we got here from the end of the last movie.

    This also illustrates why when it comes to these things, "listening to the fans" doesn't always guarantee success. The goal should be to tell a good story and doing what you need to tell that story, and not let the often contradictory impulses of a loud minority of fans drive your creative decisions. See also: The Rise of Skywalker.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
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  21. CraigBic

    CraigBic Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Personally, I don't think they should have to exposition dump the last 30 years on us, George certainly didn't take much time towards outlining all of the power dynamics when he made Star Wars. I recall in the older interviews he did before the prequels that he liked the idea that the audience was being thrown into the deep end with the culture the way you are thrown into the deep end when you watch a foreign film. Or how he felt watching Kurosawa's Samurai movies, Darth Vader wasn't even meant to be the main villain he was sort of stuck somewhere in a line of bureaucracy.
    One thing I like about The Force Awakens is that it sort of backs up the original theatrical ending of Return of the Jedi, in that the downfall of the Emporer didn't just result in instant peace and celebration but rather 3o years of uneasy tension and conflict as the Republic tried to rebuild itself. In the special editions, a much more definitive ending was struck.
    I like how the detail is there in the sequels if you want to look for it but I guess after the prequels Star Wars audiences want everything spelled out for them. Perhaps people wouldn't have been so up in arms about Leia using the force in Episode 8 if in Episode 7 she had monologed about her training with Luke and how it lead to her son's downfall to the Darkside. She could've melodramatically screamed it into Rey's face as well as they often do in anime, they'd have loved that.
     
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  22. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    You jest and yet there are trufans out there who swear Star Wars died after Empire Strikes Back. No word on whether they consider the Holiday Special to be canon.
     
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  23. Hammerhead

    Hammerhead Forum Resident

    Location:
    Aberdeen
    My 11 year old loves them all.
     
  24. CraigBic

    CraigBic Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Star Wars is a bit like The Simpsons in that regard, everyone has their own season where they think The Simpson's peaked and then became crap. Some extremists even thinking it died after Season 1. It's almost as though there is a competition for who can hate the franchise the soonest.
    I'm not sure if I'm accurate about this but I think Mike Verta is one who thinks Star Wars is the only good one, I'm sure he said he's not interested in the rest of them. You've got the fans who hate Jedi and beyond, the fans who hate the prequels and beyond...
     
  25. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Star Wars literally begins with a text crawl of exposition explaining the power dynamics and last x years. And then follows it with loads of dialog about the Senate being abolished, etc.

    TFA would have benefited greatly from a minute or so of similar clarification.
     
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