Stereo mixes & remixes - Should drums, bass & vocals be in the middle?

Well said.

 

Usually, yes.

 

A tribute to all those centered mixes yearning to breathe free:

 

Typically, bass is pretty much omnidirectional below about 80-100 - the entire structure begins moving.

During studio construction one of the things we do with infinite baffle/soffit mounting designs is to isolate the cabinets from the structure to minimize early energy transfer - this keeps the structure from transmitting bass faster than air to the mix location. Sound travels faster thru solids - recall the ol' indian ear-on-the-rail thing?

Why does sound travel faster in solids than in liquids, and faster in liquids than in gases (air)?

One thing you want to avoid is the bass from speaker coupling to the building structure and arriving at you ear sooner than the sound from the speakers. This can cause a comb filtering where you lose certain frequencies due to cancellation.

Google recording studio monitor isolation and note the tons of isolation devices sold for this reason...

Here's a doghouse design for UREL 813's I did a while ago:


As to mixing - I rarely use pan pots for directional info in my mixes. I use various time-based methods to try and simulate the precedence effect as well as directional cues and stimulate impulse responses / head related transfer functions (HRTF).
Head-related transfer function - Wikipedia
"A pair of HRTFs for two ears can be used to synthesize a binaural sound that seems to come from a particular point in space."

One thing it does is to really open up the mono field, since instruments are now localized and can be sized depending on the early reflections I set up in something like a convolution reverb.

A great write up here on the Convolvotron:
HRTF-Based Systems – The CIPIC Interface Laboratory Home Page

Part of a great resource for modern sound localization efforts for HMI audio:
The CIPIC Interface Laboratory Home Page – Electrical and Computer Engineering

As to low frequency information:
From Sound localization - Wikipedia :
Evaluation for low frequencies
For frequencies below 800 Hz, the dimensions of the head (ear distance 21.5 cm, corresponding to an interaural time delay of 625 µs) are smaller than the half wavelength of the sound waves. So the auditory system can determine phase delays between both ears without confusion. Interaural level differences are very low in this frequency range, especially below about 200 Hz, so a precise evaluation of the input direction is nearly impossible on the basis of level differences alone. As the frequency drops below 80 Hz it becomes difficult or impossible to use either time difference or level difference to determine a sound's lateral source, because the phase difference between the ears becomes too small for a directional evaluation.[11]

Interesting info here from Dr. Bruce Land on sound localization - end of #25 and into #26
#25 -- Mandelbrot and sound localization


Note the comment concerning using a bus on a DAW to mimic HRTF. Also note his refernece to the CIPIC database .

This prevents the "ear pull" associated with unbalanced RMS levels across the ears. As Dr. Land mentions, your ear localizes based on time as well as amplitude. The interaural time difference ITD (Interaural time difference - Wikipedia ) is as critical as Interaural Level Differences (ILD). As he states, humans learn early on to derive directional cues from impulse responses at the two ears.

One thing that has to be said is the significant differences in head related transfer function between various people - but note the chart where he mentions the one person with a -48dB notch at 6kHz - the curves up to around 5kHz are fairly close and in the A weighted range...

Another great lecture on sound localization from MIT:
20. Sound localization 1: Psychophysics and neural circuits

I used various time-based techniques on this:
Remix of WLL

Watch/listen to the Comparison video...

Another technique is to use double tracking and artificial double tracking (ADT) which will spread the instrument/spectra across the panorama - Automatic double tracking - Wikipedia
- tho this can lead to mono compatibility issues... some effects that do this use a bunch of bandpass filters whereas you can set the delays for each band. Note what George Martin and Geoff Emerick mention using older analog style, tape-based ADT during the Anthology sessions. Again, these techniques reduce the unbalanced feeling across the head but still open up the stereo field to allow all the instruments to sit in the stereo image.

Double tracking - both natural and ADT - is prevalent in a lot of the metal mixes - for instance:
Remix of the Curse of the Twisted Tower
Note that the opening of the first clips was locked into what it is since it didn't exist on the multitracks and was flown in on the original release. But on the other samples compare the mixes and notice they don't sound as disjointed across the panorama as does the older, pan-only mixes. One of the band members commented on how he was able to hear his solos better.

 

Great post.

 

Thanks - I really recommend watching those Dr Land lectures. He's targeting FPGA development for things like gaming and such but the info in those two vids is just amazing.
Esp. what he mentions in lecture 26 at about 30 minutes where he discusses musical instrument synthesis techniques and the issues that arise.


I wrote a real dumbed down article on using simple delays for stereo production that was published in dB magazine back in 1988:
https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-DB-Magazine/80s/DB-1988-09-10.pdf
Page 32...

 

Your posts bring up important factors to consider. Panning has its limits, even as it sometimes has its place. Yes, the placement of sounds, spatial imaging, microphone placement, opening up the mono and stereo field, physical properties and environmental considerations, and mixing/recording techniques are all critical elements. As you detail so well. And expand the discussion quite necessarily beyond the important but narrow question of "centered" vs. "not centered".

 

This is a good mix. Best via headphones:

 

Vocals should be centered unless for effect (Moving in Stereo by The Cars comes to mind). Drums and Bass it depends. Bass actually doesn’t matter because even if it’s panned it usually sounds centered anyway (which is why you can put your subwoofer anywhere in the room).

 

I like the bass drum roughly centred (&/or the snare if it's a driving track). The other drums and cymbals can go anywhere.

 

Was about to make the same point - much depends on how the drums were recorded. If the original multi-track recording was of somewhat archaic 4-and 8-track vintage, then it is likely the entire kit was tracked to one or maybe (if they're lucky) tracks. In that case, I personally would prefer the 'drums' centered in the mix. With more modern recordings to 16-, 24-, and above track formats, then the kit is usually separated on different tracks. In that case, I'd still want to hear the snare and kick centered, with cymbals, toms, percussion, etc., spread - as is usually the case with modern stereo mixes.

Lead vocals and bass should ALWAYS be centered IMHO.

 

Depends on the material. PPM album sounds fine in Stereo, while the Beach Boys song 'The Lonely Sea' is downright awful, with nothing except tape noise, breathing etc in the right channel for half of the song!

 

Generally speaking, the bass should be in the center. The drums could be placed off center but not panned hard left or right. I've often felt Rubber Soul
could have had better stereo placement. It would improve an already great album.

 

As my grandfather used to say, "most generally, usually, always..."

 

I prefer a strong, balanced center image...so any bass/drums instruments hard panned creates a "hole in the middle" if not balanced by an additional instrument

 

It works for me the hard panning sometimes. Especially when there's a lot of overdubs with a good balance, such as this. Also, a solo performer is a different animal to a band. The main focus for me is only on one person. Great of course to have a great cooking band behind!

 

With early Dylan albums with just vocals, guitar and harmonica, how would mono and stereo be different.

 

Of course. Always, without exception.

 

Yes! And let’s not forget that some decisions are influenced by the technology available at the time.

 

If we're talking about groove oriented music, on heavy/hard rock, bass and drums must be centered otherwise you'll suck all the energy from the music.

Now if it's a soft, delicate slow song, centered bass and drums will make the song sound a bit heavy and we don't want our sweet love song to sound like that.

 

I agree with this. I don't mind things being a little to one side or the other, but not slammed against the wall. The Rubber Soul type mixes with literally nothing in the center at all are the most annoying things ever.

 

Generally, I prefer the lead vocals, bass guitar, kick drum and snare drum down the middle. The rest of the drum kit I'd spread between the loudspeakers, and place other elements (lead guitar, rhythm guitars, backing vocals, keyboards, percussion, etc.) at various positions to the left and/or right side of the soundstage--depending on the requirements of the song. Of course, this isn't a hard rule. Sometimes something more eclectic is required.

 

What do you think of Dr John's Walk On Gilded Splinters? Does it groove enough?

 

I can't check it out now but there are always exceptions.
My belief is that if it does sound heavy/punchy hard panned, it will do even more otherwise.

 

It's a good rule of thumb if you are talking about a single vocalist and a simple drum kit/player. But where there are multiple vocalists or a big drum kit and a drummer who is all over the place (a la Keith Moon), then I could see where spreading things out would be more interesting than just centering it all (a la mono).