Stereo Subs or Dual Mono??

I take it you have not tried using Xover to the mains? If the crossover is of high quality I think this would be the route with the highest potential, as it will also allow you to go up in SPL on the mains/overall and/or cleaner bass as you will have removed some low freq bass duty from mains speakers, one of the clear advantages of sub implementation imo. It may take care of some of the peaks you are seeing (40 Hz) and reduce the amount of equalization that you are doing to smooth it.


Cannot say though, you would have to try it. You've got nothing but time!

 

This is my next test, the crossover is pretty transparent. The problem is that I wouldn't be able to run the subs in stereo, only dual mono.

I took care of the 40hz bump when I plugged the ports on the mains, but now I have a 15db suckout at 100hz. The sound is clean, but no punch at all. I am also considering changing the orientation of the setup in the room.

 

No, as mentioned above. Remember phase is just about getting it as close as possible, I don't think there is a perfect setting other than when playing a sine wave tone and checking dB. As long as you did this for each main and sub then your on the right path, mine is set at like 118. That setting gets me the loudest dB at 60-62Hz sine wave tone with my mains.

 

Dbl check your sub volume, turn it up till you hear it then back off some. You should not hear it.....I can kneel in front of mine and I hear nothing really from it only feel the pressure.
But I feel I have good slam, punch and depth. Also will depend on mix of what u are listening to. Sub 30hz material is tough....

I’m playing Division Bell the 20th anniversary issue and the synth bass is awesome! Spun The Wall the 2012 Doug Sax cut is very beefy but zero bloat the sub totally pressurizes the room.
It takes time to adjust a sub and your dealing with two of them plus your room is tough it seems.

I suggest you buy a new house.
Cheers

 

So I experimented in using the subs in mono and crossing over the mains. While I lost the spaciousness and expanded sound stage while running them in stereo, the bass was much more full and clean. Crossing over the sub/mains at 80 hz helped with adding some punch to music. I was able to pull the plugs out of mains, and everything sounded much cleaner. I believe the speakers were interacting with the front wall, causing the suckout in the 80-110 region I was getting.

At this point, I am looking into getting an active crossover to be able to run the subs in stereo, and be able to crossover the mains. I am looking into something like the Outlaw ICBM-1. Everything else seems much more expensive.

 

Almost all LP's have summed bass (i.e., mono) below about 50 Hz

 

Have you tried just connecting ONE sub from the P6? Like I said, I think the Parasound bass management system is excellent. Maybe your room is not optimal for two subs, you may only need one.........You can also try sending full signal to mains and then use the sub crossover, make sure the low and high pass filter on the P6 are turned off so you are not crossing over on P6 and sub.

 

I'm OK with just one sub.

 

I vote for changing the orientation of the room.

 

I have tried this, one sub is not enough in the space. I agree that the bass management on the P6 is great, but it does not accommodate subs in a "stereo" configuration.

This is where I started, but running the mains full range in their current position is causing problems with a null in the 80-110 hz region. This was reduced once I was able to crossover the mains at 80 hz.

I am considering setting up on the long wall, but I will lose about 3ft of depth and will have to keep the speakers closer to the wall. I am not sure if that will kill the depth of soundstage that I am getting with the current configuration.

 

It does, that is the "Preamp Output" section with L/R outputs for stereo effect. The "Sub Output" section is two mono signals..........

EDIT: Nevermind, forgot the P6 is a preamp, my Halo Integrated has both.

Carry on...

 

Yes, but I am talking about true stereo. Left sub gets left signal, right sub gets right signal. Not mono

 

That Preamp Output section, on your P6 called "Main Output", is just like speaker outputs a L and a R connection, so it would be a stereo sound. The "Sub Output" section is two mono signals so connections labeled 1 and 2 output the same signal, so not stereo. Are you using the Rec Out to connect to your power amp?

 

On the first setup with the subs in stereo, I ran the RCA preouts to the power amp, and the XLR preouts to the subs. With this setup I could not use the High Pass filter since I was running the subs out of the main preout.

On the most recent setup with subs in mono, I run the XLR preouts to the power amp, and the XLR sub out to the first sub, then daisy chain the second sub in. I am able to crossover the mains and the sub using the P6 bass management.

 

Just so I understand, and others too, you are using the "Balanced Out XLR" at the top left to connect to your amp, right? Then using the "Sub Out 1 XLR" top left also to connect one sub (call it A) then connect that to second sub (call it B), which yes would be a mono sound to both subs, I think using "Sub Out 1 XLR" takes the place of using "Sub Output 1 RCA" but you still have "Sub Output 2 RCA" available. But you can do that without the daisy chain using two RCA cables from the "Sub Output 1&2" connection bottom middle and use the built-in low pass filter, connect sub A to 1 and sub B to 2, 1 and 2 are same signal so mono.
If you use the "Main Output" next to it marked L and R, that would be a stereo setup. What I don't know is since you are using the "Balanced Out XLR" to your amp does that take the place of the "Main Output RCA" connections?? I know for example if you use "Balanced In 5 XLR" top left that takes the place of the RCA "Analog Inputs 5" on the front panel selector. If it does not then try connecting your subs via RCA to "Main Output L&R" for stereo subs, but make sure first, you might need to call Parasound. On the HINT that is called "Pre Output" not "Main Output" like yours.

Maybe this is all a null point and you know all this....cheers

 

You can use both the main balanced out and the main RCA outs at the same time.

 

Have you tried not using ccossover at all, plugging the ports of main speakers, and use the xlr main balance output to connect to subs to do stereo subs, and use crossover on the subs to blend with the mains?

 

I guess I am wondering about your daisy chain connection......I would try connecting both subs to the P6 and try out both crossovers on the sub and the P6 see if that makes any difference.

 

Yes, that is what I did first, I went into a bit of detail about it earlier in the thread. While it expanded the soundstage and made things clear, the bass wasn’t very strong. I believe the location of the towers is causing issues in the 80-100 hz range, but this goes away once I applied the crossover

 

I am daisy chaining due to using XLR’s. One sub is a 25 ft run from the preamp to sub location, and I didn’t want to run an RCA that long. I spoke with Parasound, and they told me that it would be perfectly fine to run XLRs like this, I also get another 6db gain using the XLR out.

 

Oh I get it, it works but was just wondering about the whole chain. Have you tried just one sub? I toyed with getting two subs and kinda glad I did not, maybe one day will add another but I really do not think I need it. My room is pretty big but I feel I get good response from my listening position, the SVS has made my mains sound better.
I will say when I stand up in my spot I sense more pressurization and fullness to the sound than when sitting, so that is a sub location issue but overall the sound is better with the addition of a sub. I don't really want that much fullness and bottom end, although some records are mixed with heavy bottom, then I have to turn down the sub level on the HINT which is a great feature Parasound included.

 

There are a lot of recordings that can benefit from stereo subs. Many classical recordings have amazing low stereo bass, depending on how they recorded. When there is a loud bass drum hit in an orchestral recording, the reverb from that drum can swim all around the room and if you haven't heard that type of low frequency content in stereo, you're really missing out on a treat.

Also there are recordings with dual kick drums which sound nice in stereo. Granted much of the sound from a bass drum can be heard without subs, but what they can add can be really impressive.

 

I doubt if if make much or any difference between running subs in stereo vs. mono. Most source material does not differentiate that much in the lower sub-bss region, though some recordings do. Also, since lower sub-bass frequencies are omnidirectional, stereo sub-bass would not likely be that apparent as far as differences between channels go.

However... as you get up to crossing over you subs at the higher frequencies above 60-Hz., then is a lot more stereo oriented "normal" bass in that region and you will be able to notice more of s stereo effect at those frequencies, just the same as you would, it you did not have a sub in your system.

I totally agree with you on the localization. But even that is dependant on frequency.

I find that a good many individuals, including myself, in the past, cross over their subs at 80-Hz. When I do that and a sub is positioned off axis, in front of me, I can close my eyes and point directly to the sub's location. With the sub positioned directly behind me and off axis, I can not.

In the older days Pro-Logic of home theater, with an added sub, since the TV would be between the front mains, the manufacture would provide you with a diagram showing how to position the sub off to the side of one of the front mains.

While the sub-bass was all over the room, I could always tell exactly where the sub-bass was originating. And, at the time, my front mains were large Klipsch KG5.5's, which have a 98-dB. sensitivity, play down to 34-Hz. (at their -3 dB. point) and have dual 10" woofers, having more than ample bss on their own. My sub and center channel speakers were also Klipsch.



I used to enjoy playing the beginning of the Lion King, VHS video tape for visitors who were impressed with the elephants stomping, when the sub was added to the system.

With my current HT and stereo. The HT uses the large Polk flagship LSiM707's as front mains. The tube stereo uses the Altec A7's and both use the same 15" horn loaded commercial passive 15" sub (pictured to the let of one of the A7 cabinets).

I use the HT surround sound processor for both HT and the stereo signal from my Peachtree iNova integrated to use bass management and send everything from 40-Hz. and below out the LFE channel of the processor. That way, my sub connection is the same for both HT and stereo.

There is another sofa, which is positioned directly in front of the TV screen about 10' to 11' back from the TV.

When you get down to the sub-bass frequencies of 40-Hz. you simply can no longer localize the bass. It doesn't matter where you stand in the room, you can not tell where the sub-bass is originating from.

You can even get up and stand directly in front of the sub and you have to place your head directly in front of the lower part of the cabinet, where the mouth of the bass horn is located, and even then you can just barely tell that there is something coming out of the bass cabinet.



Dual subs, whether stereo or mono will even out the bass from the sub in the listening room and eliminate the localization at frequencies of 80-Hz.

I find that as I reduce the crossover frequency it becomes increasingly more difficult to localize a sub. At 60-Hz. it becomes almost impossible, at 40-Hz. it is completely impossible, even if the sub is really pounding away.

 

I just added dual Rythmik L22's to my Tekton Pendragon setup and have been working through the various options. I know this thread is old, but since my situation is very similar, I thought I'd share. I tried it with the Pendragon's full range with the subs cut low, as well as with a Sublime Acoustic K231 Crossover. I'm about three weeks into testing various configurations, but so far here's what's working well for me. To be clear, I am testing by ear using a library of well-known track and with test tones. I haven't used REW or added DSP, so take this with a grain of salt.

1. My best sound so far comes from using a passive crossover to roll off the mains. This is definitely cleaning the mid-range and muddy bass I seemed to get with any full-range configuration. However, it requires very careful placement and phase setting to get right. There are lots of phase issues and suck-outs to deal with before things locked in.

2. I placed the subs nears the mains with the drivers aligned. Other configurations sounded fine, but this one seems to help lock things in. Since I decided to cut over at 80 hz, I found that placing them even a few feet away seemed to cause localization issues. Cutting them at 60hz made placement easier, but at the expense of cleaner mid-range.

3. I set phase for each channel separately using a test tone at the crossover point. I used two central listening positions to maximize db at the crossover freq. I also walked around the room at various phase/delay settings to listen for major nulls. There was a setting for each sub that maximized db and reduced nulls, and it was different for each side, which I found counter-intuitive.

My takeaways are that cutting off full-range speakers can have a major impact on SQ, especially in terms of mid-range clarity and sound-stage. However, it makes a mess of the crossover area that you need to clean up, using test tones and your ears. I hope even better bass is a tweak away, but this is the best I've found so far.

Two suggestions for a bass workout:
1. Organic double-bass: From Ankara to Izmir from Skip Hop and Wobble - can the subs make Edgar's solo sound real? He hits a low note at the end that seems to create extra gravity in the room.
2. Power and precision: Here In the Night from Kelley Polar - does the entire room pulsate with deep bass 16th note arpeggios? This song lights up the room like nothing I've heard!

 

Nicely written. I also noticed cutting off low bass helps a lot with mid range clarity of mains.

Did you do dual mono or stereo bass?