Steve; any views on the new SACD tools?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Richard Feirstein, May 26, 2002.

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  1. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    I see that both Philips and Sony have released new tools for the mastering and mixing of DSD masters. Of interest was a description of tools that would more accurately master from PCM and analog source materials and more accurately master PCM CD's from DSD masters. This would seem to make DSD mastering more attractive for someone like you. Are you at liberty to share you thoughts.

    Also, since many older Vinyl releases had different mono and stereo mixes, is there any discussion in the industry about utilizing the room on the SACD to put on both mixes on the one disk. Today we often get the multi-channel and stereo mix but the mono and stereo mix would be true to the artistic creation, something you seem to have a real interest in. The SACD of Blond on Blond just has a new Stereo mix and we have to wait for SUNDAZED to re-release a vinyl mono mix. Gerrrrrr.

    Don't comment on this; but sometimes I think the great folks at Sony Music are brain dead.:D
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Hi Richard,

    I'm really not at liberty to share my thoughts, yet. Soon, perhaps.

    Regarding the stereo/mono thing on one disc, well that's an angle that really hasn't been discussed much. Which would get the honor of the hi-rez layer, and which would be demoted to the ol' "second best" layer? Not a decision I would want to make! Sure to set someone off somewhere.

    Most of the talk has been about multi-channel mixing, and how to actually do it correctly. No one seems to know, even now. Engineers have done a 360 (pun intended) about the subject who have been remixing in surround for a few years now.
     
  3. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    I think you misunderstand my suggestion Steve. A single layer SACD disk has room for lots of information. Currently all multi-channel SACD hi-rez disks, for example, have a seperate hi-rez stereo track compiled from a actual stereo master and not downmixed from the multi-channel track, as is the case on some/many DVD-A disks.

    My proposal is that when you have vintage audio materal that had different stereo and mono mixes, put both on their own hi-rez tracks on the single layered SACD disk. Today vintage stereo stuff only has the stereo track on the SACD disk, and sometimes, a new multi-channel version. If a hybred disk is used, the same stereo source used on the SACD layer is placed on the conventional 16 bit CD layer, thus providing two hi-rez sources (multi-channel and stereo SACD), and one conventional 16 bit source on one disk. I say, forget the new multi-channel creation and give us the stereo and mono versions in Hi-Rez. I'm sure you can think of lots of 60's stereo vinyl releases that also had very different mono versions released into the wild. :cool:
     
  4. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    It has been pointed out before (on this site, I think), that the new tools for SACD production introduce the kinds of things that audio purists abhor: noise reduction and compression tools immediately come to mind.
     
  5. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    There is no way you can produce a "pop" song without compression and other significant editing tools. If you want to utilize DSD instead of analog or PCM you need those tools. But the interesting part of the Sony and Philips tools just being discussed are improved tools to convert PCM sources into DSD and, perhaps more important, improved tools to convert a DSD master into PCM for superior CD and perhaps Dolby Digital and DTS versions.

    Compression, limiting, EQ and noise reduction tools are not the problem, the mis-use and over-use of these tools is the problem.
     
  6. Paul L.

    Paul L. New Member

    Location:
    Earth


    And I thought you had forgotten all about SACD ;)
     
  7. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

  8. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    I just thought this idea a bit further (mono and stereo mixes on the hi-rez layer of an SACD disk).

    You would have to put the stereo mix in the expected stereo location so that existing stereo only SACD players could play the stereo mix. The alternative mono mix would go in the multi-channel section of the disk and owners of multi-channel players could access the alternative mono mix. If the disk is hybred the stereo mix would go on the 16 bit CD layer. I am sure this would revolutionized the utility of the new media and help make it the darling of fans and critics alike. Who will be bold enough to talk Bob Dylan's managment and the managment of all those other recording song and dance folks to take this plunge? I think it's one hell of a good idea. It's a hell of a lot better than taking that vintage materal and reworking it into multi-channel renditions; yes it is! Just tell Sony Music this is something they cannot easily do with DVD-A:p
     
  9. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Oh-oh!

    Guess I'd better hold off on getting that DVD-A player.... may have to change it to a SACD player.... :D
     
  10. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Actually you wouldn't have to put the stereo and mono mixes into different sections: one could follow the other in the same segment, as has often been done on conventional CDs - such as the new remaster of Surrealistic Pillow, the MFSL Disraeli Gears, or the Capitol remaster of Pet Sounds. If you wanted to hear only the stereo or mono parts of the disk, you'd just have to program your player to play those sections back. Assuming an appropriate length of a particular program, then, one could have Stereo & Mono as well as M-C on the same SACD.

    As you suggest above, Richard, the SACD tools for converting PCM would appear to be counter-productive in a sense: the record company would not have to go back to its analog masters to produce its DSD versions, so, as in the case of the BMG Hong Kong Belafonte SACD, all you'd be hearing would be the PCM converted to DSD on your SACD layer. I see its value in converting DDD to DSD, though, but then, I can't imagine wanting to buy such a conversion of Brothers In Arms just as long as I owned a player that was capable of redbook playback (unless Steve Hoffman did the remastering, of course).;)
     
  11. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    As far as I know there are no PCM versions of Bob Dylan's early mono material. Bob's management and Sony Music allowed SUNDAZED to find the mono masters and cut mono vinyl directly from that source. For all vintage analog material, it could and should be mastered direct to DSD from those very mono and stereo masters; you know, like the one Steve Hoffman use to produce that great DCC Highway 61 Revisited.
     
  12. MagicAlex

    MagicAlex Gort Emeritus

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Just saw a Pioneer unit that's come out, DV-747A, that supports SACD, DVD-A, DVD, DVD-RW, Redbook, CDR, Video CD, Dolby Digital, DTS, and Mp3! That's runs the gamit. I'd like to see more companies manufacture units like this!
     
  13. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The other day on TechTV they showed one of those Apex units that does CD/DVD-V/DVD-A/SACD/MP3/HDCD. They do exist!
     
  14. Paul L.

    Paul L. New Member

    Location:
    Earth
    Richard,

    I asked Bob Irwin of Sundazed about Dylan on SACD. He said esentially that there's no chance of Sony licensing Dylan SACDs to an outside label, but that he's sure Sony will eventually do it themselves.
     
  15. Paul L.

    Paul L. New Member

    Location:
    Earth
    MagicAlex and lukpac,

    The trouble with these particular units you mention:

    The Pioneer has received fairly bad reviews for its SACD portion.

    Apex, at least in general, has a horrible reputation in quality control. I went through several of their DVD machines before giving up on them. True, they may have a machine that is okay mixed in with all the rejects, but who wants to take that chance? I wouldn't waste my time and effort auditioning another one if it were free.

    If someone needs both SACD and DVD-A, I would definitely recommend buying two separate machines.

    I just picked up another Sony SACD unit, the SCD-CE775 for $185 (it's a close-out). Some people have found them for even less, but as open box units. The 775 is a steal at that price.
     
  16. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Does this also play DVD - V? If so it will probably play DVD audio but only 2 channel... in 96/24.

    I presume it is NOT from "The Sony Store"? I don't really know of a place in Canada that sells Sony SACD players other than the Sony Store. They *were* going to be distributed thru Sears at one time....
     
  17. Paul L.

    Paul L. New Member

    Location:
    Earth
    Gary,

    No, this is strictly an audio machine. Plays multichannel and stereo SACDs and old-fashioned CDs.

    Maybe you could bring a unit back with you next time you are in the States.
     
  18. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    You know, Paul L, that is a distinct possibility as I'll be going to Cape Cod in June! :) Thanks for the great idea! I love travelling by car in the USA!

    You should always avoid the "Captain D's" breakfast buffet though.... ulp!:o And I've always considered "Tank Crossing" more of a "Yield" sign than a warning sign... :eek:
     
  19. Brad Robinson

    Brad Robinson New Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Hey Gary,
    I bought my SACD player online at futureshop.ca for 400.00 CAN. They have a few different machines to choose from, including DVD players.
    Brad
     
  20. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    WhErE!?!?! $#(@#($)#@($ I go there all the time and that #@!#!@ sales guy has NEVER heard of SACD!!! :mad: GRRRRRR :mad:

    Thanks, Brad! Appreciate it!!!:) :) :)

    PS Just kidding about the @^&^#@! stuff. ;) *sigh* It's soooo hard to find good 'help' these days, eh? :rolleyes:
     
  21. TimB

    TimB Pop, Rock and Blues for me!

    Location:
    Colorado
    It seems to me...

    That as long as one has the space, both stereo and mono could be on the same res layer. For example, the MoFi release of Disreali Gears by Cream, has both mono and stereo on one disc. One may even have the ability to have mono, stereo, and surround if the prgram material fits!
    Am I correct in assuming that the dual layer discs have one hi rez layeyer and one cd qualuty layer, or can one have 2 hi rez layers?
     
  22. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    One can make a dual layered SACD hi-rez disk or a hybred disk with the outer layer SACD and the inner layer 16 bit CD. I know of no dual layerd SACD disk out in the wild.

    Curerently all multi-channel SACD disks, on the single hi-rez layer, have the multi-channel program in one section and the stereo program in another section. I'll see if I can get Sony's SACD expert who often posts at another web site to comment on the potential to utilize other mastering alternatives than the current standard in use.
     
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