Stooges - Raw Power: Legacy Edition w/ Original Mix!*

Sorry. That was my fault. I neglected to finish my sentence.

I meant to say that the otherwise quite atrocious mastering done for 2005's 'A Million In Prizes', for some strange reason, contains new/much better transfers of the remixes done in '97 (for the three songs that appear on it). Maybe this was done out of people's objections about the extreme volume?

Their still loud as hell, but that's just due to the remix. The mastering is infinitely better.

That had to be the loudest disc issued in the year 1997. Archival releases/new releases/whatever. The perfect storm of a super-loud remix combined with a super-loud mastering. I forget who did the mastering for that release in '97. But, he had to have been getting told to obliterate the levels by Iggy (who clearly didn't understand that the loudness of an album should always come from the mixing, and not from the mastering)...

 

It's a shame they couldn't have done more from the remix on that release.

Most of the remix's bad rep is because someone (cough...Iggy...cough) somehow didn't understand the concept of mastering. I can understand the label heads letting him do the remix, but why didn't they reject the mastering? It was several years ahead of its time when it came to the "loudness wars"...

 

I see. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

Oh alright...

 

Listening to the Legacy again right now. I think the record has never sounded better. The only exception is Search and Destroy, which is neither improved nor degraded. I guess (as legend has it), it really may be from Iggy's unreleased mix, as it sounds very different to the rest of the album now (lighter bass and dynamics). It might follow that the obviously different mix (as opposed to mastering) on the Embassy cassette may be the mix from Bowie's session at Western.

 

Matrix numbers are S 65586 A1 & S 65586 B1 for the Raw Power 1973 LP holding the "alternate" mix.

I used the world alternate quote unquote because apart from Search & Destroy, the rest of the LP sound like it's the same mixes after attentive listening and comparison, only mastered correctly.

Now that it's etablished that Raw Power came out in 1973 in two different versions, one sounding awfully bad with a Search & Destroy mix that sounds thin with no bass and drums (which is the version now on Legacy), and the other sounding like a full on mastered LP (and with a version of Search & Destroy featuring clear drum and bass) -- it would be worth investigating which is the correct one.

I'm not sure either Iggy or JW can remember because let's face it, it was over 35 years ago, and I doubt they went to the pressing plant to survey if everything was going on right with the pressing the first time around (they probably were busy with girls girls girls !) -- but I'm certain there wouldn't be all this hoopla about the Bowie mix that went on for years, if the one above was the only one available.

Of course the Legacy CD makes the most in the mastering of what is on their "master" tape. It's just too bad they didn't just put the Embassy reels on CD1 with a nice mastering, and put the thin version of S&D as bonus on CD3 for completists. Probably because they qualify in their press release the Embassy tapes as a totally different mix, when actually it's a different (good) EQ for 7 tracks, and a different mix for the first (thought on first listen, you might be fooled into thinking it's a different mix due to the huge sounding bass and drums).

 

absolutely--if only for the one (best?) track. So apart from the matrix numbers, the other key data are: UK first press, 1973, CBS label. Is that it?

 

Put the Legacy and the 80s cd in the old Foobar abx this morning, using replay gain. Of course that's not what the tool is really for. Some tracks had night and day differences--Gimme Danger and Shake Appeal, but Raw Power was only a bit different (still 4/4 and easy to tell with focused listening).

Not much difference in the bass over my Rega Elas. But the low treble is much louder--I'm sure someone with the tools could show the big differences are here. The bass is the same distant cardboardy low-level thump on both version. The treble sounds polished and more resolved on the Legacy, and a bit hyped. But the original sounds weird by comparison.

On the other hand the Legacy is much louder on some tracks. Overall I'd have to say it's an improvement but it's never going to sound like a regular rock record with that mix.

 

I have this as well, it's a Holland pressing, catalog number 65586 1

 

Ok, but is this Embassy reel that much of a revelation?

 

I just preordered the Boxset at Amazon.DE (Germany).
This means for me NO shipping costs and NO taxes, yes !!!

 

I just received my copy of the Deluxe Edition and it didn't have a copy of Disc 1. Customer service here I come...

 

Yes, totally. I think a couple of guys on this board came across it, or realised they own it as part of the multiple pressings they collected over the years.

Once you heard this UK LP version, there's no turning back.

I believe it's a mistake to call it the "Embassy" reel, because as etablished now, this better sounding version of the record came out in the UK on CBS in 1973 at the same time as the other one. (Thought it was reissued by Embassy on tape, we still don't have come across a fan owning an Embassy LP version with this mix).

Multiple versions of the same record are no surprise here (just witness the variations in Beatles discs). I do think the existence of a better vinyl version of RP might help clear some light on the disc troubled history. It might be possible that the US pressing was ruined by the technicians in charge of the pressing and lacquer (hence Scott Asheton reaction as he threw the record away after giving it one listen), and that a last minute shift made for a better mastered version being shipped to the UK pressing plant. Search & Destroy being a totally different mix might be a last minute decision (as you remember, Iggy still says all the record is Bowie apart from the opening track, where he insisted his mix to be used). I don't know which version of S&D is Bowie, and which is Iggy. All I know is that the Embassy one have huge drums and bass and kicks ****, while the other is like listening to an old transistor radio.

The sad part is that the wrong thin sounding version have transferred to CD for posterity and not the correct one. The two tracks they added on CD 3 from the "Embassy" reels actually sound just like the ones on CD 1 : they ruined the whole purpose of the reels, by re-EQing the two tracks so that they sound just like the ones on CD1.

 

I agree with Seventeen's above screed except for the word "correct." I think the mix on the original US LP and the new Legacy CD is the one they (Bowie and Mainman and, by extension, Iggy) meant to release. I don't know what happened in the UK, except the press materials do state that the original US mastering cut off the bass. The whole Legacy CD1 sounds much better than the original mastering except for Search and Destroy. It is definitely true that the UK release has a different mix of that song. A stronger one. It's my guess that the familiar one is the one Iggy claimed was "his", but that's just my guess. Seventeen is right that we're just guessing. But I don't agree that they've released the 'wrong" version of the album. I'm sure that this is the one marked "master" and we agree it's the same one as the original Columbia album (only it sounds better). Past there, who knows.

 

"Correct", that is, according to me (and probably a large chunk of the people who have heard the UK one, or grown up on it)

The Raw Power story would probably make a very good book, cataloguing all the different mixes / mastering etc, like the ones in the Classic Albums series.

 

I've had the US since '73 and the UK since '75. We Raw Power fans have been looking for the better sounding version since it was originally released and Lester Bangs and the Stooges told us the mix was ruined. That includes the original single with "better" EQ, each CD release, eight track, Bomp version, WABX broadcast, Internet sourced early mixes, everything!

 

so it is every 1973 UK copy that has the fuller mix of "Search and Destroy," or only certain matrix numbers?

 

So far, only the one with the following numbers S 65586 A1 & S 65586 B1. CBS UK record as seen here



But I'm sure more references will come to light as people realise there is two versions running around.

To recap it all in one post, you can easily point out the different RP LP version by listening to Search & Destroy, the opening track. If it sounds like it's playing through an old portable 60's radio with no bottom, no drums and no bass, then it's the "regular" most widespread version, as heard on all CDs issued so far (save Iggy remix from 97 of course). If you hear loud bass and drums and a kick from the drums running through the whole song, then the whole LP is the alternate version, with the rest of the tracks being mastered in such a way that Ron's bass shine all the way through.

Just for historical purpose, I will add that the UK version is probably the one Steve Jones learned guitar from playing to it, and that it account to how revered the album was in the UK and in France. And before this came to light, I met a few guys from the 77 London scene, who told me in the past something was wrong with the Bowie mix RP CD and they thought one mix had replaced the original. That includes guys from Metal Urbain on my label (first band on Rough Trade) who told me this story a decade ago. I wouldn't know as I didn't own the LP anymore, and only had the Bowie mix CD and the Iggy remix. Only when I listened to a needle drop of the "Embassy" version did I realise that suddenly, the LP sounded just like I remembered (ie not like crap).

 

ok, and the new Legacy CD, in your opinion, reproduces or approximates this different, 1973 UK version for all tracks except for "Search and Destroy"?

or is it that the whole 1973 UK version has vastly superior bass and drums to not only the US LP and early CDs but also to the Legacy CD as a whole?

granted, "Search and Destroy" is a highlight...

 

Legacy sound like the best version on CD of the US first press vinyl --

Yes the UK LP is, in my humble opinion superior, not only for the different mix of Search & Destroy, but also the sound of the other tracks.

I guess it will live now for collectors who come across the pressing, and thru the internet blogs posts for those who don't have that luck...

 

Ok, I'd like to hear that UK press. I have the US original, and it sounds alright to me. But, this album wasn't that good of a recording to begin with, true?

And are you saying that someone else did the mix for the UK press besides Bowie?

In addition, are you saying that the mastering for the US press is off? How do you know this?

 

I've heard this alleged before, and don't understand it.

Subsequently released, previously rejected, demos recorded for the album ("I'm Sick Of You", etc) sound great. Why wouldn't the album? Who was the engineer for the 'Raw Power' sessions anyway?

Also, except for being too loud and revisionist, the Iggy remix doesn't sound much different from 'Funhouse' to me. In other words, pretty well-recorded...

 

Here's a comparison sample just to get an idea of the difference, of Search & Destroy.

First 40s are the old Columbia CD from the 80's pretty much sounding like the 1st US press - the next 40s repeating the same part is a needle drop of the UK first press from 1973 as mentioned a couple of posts above.

Search & Destroy vs Search & Destroy

I'll be right back with more comments --

 

Good question! I wish I knew...

 

I have a vinyl re-issue PC 32111 from Columbia Record on heavy vinyl. I have no idea what mix this is, but it says mixed by David Bowie and Iggy Pop. Is this the original mix that is on the new 2CD set?