Stranger than Fiction, Larger Than Life: the Finn Brothers song-by-song discussion thread

It's a bit sad that the "disappointing" sales of about a million worldwide is tangled up in the narrative of this album. I dont think I've ever fully appreciated the album until this discussion here. Now I think it's one of Neil's most daring and focused artistic statements.

It does lack a certain peppiness that I associate with hits, and which Crowded House (and nearly all projects since) did have, but that was a conscious decision. I'm sure they could have put "Shes'Not There" or "Throw Your Arms Around Me"(or both) and maybe it would have made the album more commercial.

I think what I wrote earlier encapsulated most of my thoughts on the themes of the album and I don't want to repeat what I've already written here.

I think that Neil achieves what he wanted to: communication and expression of some very complex feelings in a very tempestuous, stressful time for him. Certainly, the album's themes are more together and cohesive than Crowded House. There are moments of lyrical clumsiness ,but they get their emotional points across. At times in this discussion, we have put forward various interpretations and narratives of the songs on this album; some of them wildly different. But the emotional narratives are all the same. Whether "Never Be the Same" explores the tension between marriage and career or the death of a friend and the allowance of melancholy remembrance to temper forward-thinking optimism with wisdom, the emotional narrative, the feeling the song imparts, remains the same.

With Temple of Low Men, I'm reminded a bit of a handful of albums by commercial artists: John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band, Blood on the Tracks, Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys, Neil Young's mid-seventies run, Up by REM -- and of course a slew of nineties albums, as that's when darkness became commercial.... Harrowing, dark listens when you really let them sink under your skin.

Nothing about it seems like Neil was looking for a hit: he was following his muse. Woodface would see him desperately reworking and retooling an album in an attempt to make a hit (which ultimately paid off in Europe and paid off artistically too) but this, by contrast, is an uncompromising album that was either remarkably brave or (if having a hit was really important to Neil) an example of great hubris. He may indeed have been subconsciously trying to scale down the success a little with this release and make it more manageable.

Either way, though, it's fascinating and dark presentation of the dark subsconscious of the bright day-glo 80s culture of greed, ambition and success, offering only the forlorn hope of a home (that might be breaking before his very eyes) as consolation.

5/5

 

I agree with the previous poster who said that this album is a step up on its predecessor. It is a bit more consistent - despite the presence of Kill Eye - and a little more mature as well.

I still think it is a long way below the two albums that come next though in terms of songwriting (on the next) and production (on the one after).

3/5.

 

Wow, what insightful posts! I can't begin to offer anything as substantial as that. All I can say is that, out of 10 songs, I think I rated seven of them as 5/5. That's a remarkable scoring rate by anyone's standards. The only weak tracks on this album are Kill Eye and Sister Madly (for me). The remainder are all keepers.

They're a bit dark, a bit hard to get into but once there, I find their combination of darkness and uplifting choruses to be the perfect tonic. I came to the album well after the fact. And it was a surprising record to hear after Woodface's jollity and fun. But it's the shade that gives edge and structure to the light. And this album didn't just place some much-needed shade against Woodface, within itself it offered shade and light in equal measure. And that's something I was instantly attracted to: the sense that underneath the happy-go-lucky exterior, there's something lurking, something sad or angry or plain mad.

In any other catalogue, this album would be head and shoulders the best record in it. But, unfortunately for ToLM, but happily for me, it sits alongside Together Alone. And that's company no record can stand up against.

Temple of Low Men is a triumph. That it wasn't a hit is no surprise. And, while I think it was infinitely more deserving of success than most fodder that sells by the bucketload, it seems somehow fitting that a record that offers such subtle delights should remain in the shadows.

 

Sorry I jumped the gun back there.

Temple of Low Men is the only one of the original 4 albums written solely by Neil. The album might as well have been called Neil Finn and the Castaways, he clearly was in complete control here. With no non-lp, studio B-sides for this album, it's clear to me that Neil had a story he wanted to tell, and the at-the-time unreleased songs like Walking On The Spot and other leftovers from the first album did not figure into what he wanted to say. And Temple of Low Men is all the better for that focused vision.

It's been said that Neil had writers block at the time.
Was he subconsciously resisting the self-examination that he consciously was engaging in?
Or was he consciously resisting the self-examination that he subconsciously was engaging in?
Was it a little of both?

Mitchell Froom's (and Neil's) production choices were of course completely deliberate. What is the story they were trying to tell from a production standpoint? Temple of Low Men always strikes me as a keyboards and acoustic guitars album. There are plenty of electric guitars, but even the songs with faster tempos are heavily accented with keyboards and acoustics. I don't know what these choices might mean, but the mood of the whole album is heavily affected by these choices. Was sadness, regret, or guilt in the songs softened by the "sound" of the album?

The production and arrangement choices in 1985 through 1988 have loomed large in another way in the history of Crowded House. In live performance Neil couldn't be in two places at once, Even following the first record, the heavy use of keyboards necessitated bringing in one touring hired hand after another. I wonder if Neil's first choice for a tour keyboardist/potential fourth member was Mitchell Froom, and Mark Hart was always a second choice. That would explain Mark Hart's recent firing in favor of Froom. I love what Mart Hart brought to the band, I also love what Mitchell Froom has brought.

 

In fact they did offer Froom a permanent position in the band in 1986 but he turned them down. The only way he would join, he said, would be if the then unnamed band called themselves “Neil Finn and the Losers.”

 

"Temple of Low Men" was the first Finn album where I was aware before its release that it was forthcoming. Thanks to the U.S. fan club I knew several weeks in advance the title of the album, the titles of the tracks and the release date. On the day of release, which was the 8th July 1988 here, I went to the biggest record store in Stockholm and bought the LP. It was a Friday afternoon and I spent that weekend, and any spare time in the next few weeks, listening to the album on repeat. My expectations were sky high, but initially I was really disappointed, perhaps because I subconsciously had expected it to be "Crowded House II". It took a few days, but then the album clicked for me in a big way. There are so many textures and subtle layers, so much in the music and the lyrics to discover and digest. Even now, more than 30 years later, I still find new depths in the album.

Neil's songwriting here is really top notch, with gem after gem after gem, and it really feels like he and the band and Mitchell Froom had a very clear vision of what kind of record they wanted to make. They didn't play it safe, they challenged themselves and pushed themselves.

The sequencing of the tracks definitely contributes to making this a timeless classic. Clearly they had some different ideas regarding this prior to the release and the final one is perfect in my opinion. I am also glad they didn't include, say, "Throw Your Arms Around Me" (which they said in 1987 interviews they were considering) or the re-recorded version of "Recurring Dream" (which was on the "Tequila Sunrise" soundtrack later in 1988). Neither song would have fitted on this album.

Apart from his stellar work as the producer, I think Mitchell Froom did excellent choices as a keyboardist, both in terms of playing and what sounds to use for each track.

"Temple of Low Men" was and is daring, uncompromising and filled with incredible music and lyrics. It's definitely on my personal short-list for being the best album ever. As a bonus, it also has one of the best cover paintings.

5/5

 

Glad someone said this; i always saw it that way too.

It's eerie how much this parallels my experience. I eagerly awaited the album, excitedly bought it, and then thought to myself "huh. This is weird." But it grew on me then, and now, 30 years on, my appreciation for it is even greater. Especially having gone through some of the stuff my at the time teenage self would have no frame of reference for.

5 overall, I don't see how it can't be.

 

I only really discovered the band after Woodface, although I had heard a few random songs before that, so I first listened to the album as the middle part of a trilogy that started and ended magnificently. Bizarrely this led me to think that the album was a lot weaker than it really was for a long time. Grew on me over the years, so a 4 from me.

 

A solid 4 for me. TOLM draws you into a world of demons, false prophets and adultery - and that's just in the first three songs. You can see why fans of the first album would be confused, if not downright hostile.

 

I picked up "Temple of Low Men" on vinyl last summer, gave it a listen, it was probably the first time I'd heard it in well over 10 years. I thought it was somewhat weak apart from the few tracks that I've always loved (Kill Eye, Love This Life, Better Be Home). Recently listened to it a few more times because of this thread, and yeah, it really is a pretty good album. I think half of the album is great and half is just average (at least by Neil's high standards) so I guess I still consider this the weakest of all the Crowded House albums (well, maybe tied with Afterglow).
3.5/5

 

Reading the insightful posts above from robcar, HitAndRun, Lance, Paul H, Stefan and others I keep thinking "yes, exactly, me too" so my own feelings have already been eloquently expressed by you all. Suffice to say I love it, but as always I struggle with an appropriate rating because I never know whether to rate a Finn album (or song) relative to other Finn stuff or relative to the rest of pop/rock music. If the former then 4/5 if the latter then 5/5

 

Temple is my second favorite CH album. To me, the album would be perfect if “Kill Eye” has been left in the bin. The record is full of great vocals, lyrics, and performances. “Into Temptation” is my favorite song on the album. I think it’s one of Neil’s very best.

I’ve got to take a half point off the score for the inclusion of KE, so Temple is a 4.5/5.

I remember reading an article about the album, and how it wasn’t living up to expectations, in Rolling Stone. It made me feel a bit sad way back when, and it still does now.

Crowded House: The Story of the Second Album – Rolling Stone

 

Temple is my least favorite of the original 4. It kind of lands in the middle and maybe that's why. Not as catchy and immediate as Woodface or Crowded House but not as rewarding a listen as Together Alone. I think the songwriting is just overall better on all the other albums. Having said that, I go through periods where I really enjoy listening to it so it does have a magic.

3.75/5

 

Not too much time on my hands for more words today...

4.2 / 5

 

I've been posting the band members' comments on the songs, from "When You Come" on. These comments are from the Australian fan club's June 1988 newsletter and I didn't think of that until we started discussing "When You Come". For the sake of completeness, here are the band members' comments about the first four tracks on "Temple of Low Men" from the same newsletter.

I FEEL POSSESSED

Nick - "Can you hear the bass, the bass isn't loud enough on this song. It's never loud enough. The funny thing is that I hear every song through the bass. All I hear is the bass, sometimes I get surprised that there are lyrics. It's a bass band with a few wisecracks at Nick's expense. The one lyric in this song that sticks with me is 'Whenever you invade my home', is that because Neil doesn't want me to come around and see him. I'm never sure that I should use his toilet in case I soil it."

Neil - "It's about supernatural things happening in domestic situations. The logical conclusion to 'World Where You Live'."

(There are no comments by Paul about this song)

KILL EYE

Paul - "The beginning of the song is Jimmy Swaggert. He comes on at the start and says 'I beg you, forgive me'. That's taken from the news report, admitting about the prostitute. He admitted that he had 'pornographic acts' with this lady. He made a dramatic news plea on radio and television for all of America to forgive him. Neil's had this song hanging around. He never really knows what the song is about it seems till he finishes the lyrics. It's got some great lyrics like 'Shoot your way out of the bank / watch the security guard / kill eye'. So you make of it what you will. It's the most unworked song that we've done and the noise at the end of 'Kill Eye' is Nick taping magpies and blowflies at Doncaster at 4 a.m. one morning."

Nick - "It was actually at Templestowe not Doncaster. Paul always says 'we'. When Paul talks about Nick doing specific things he always says that we thought of actually making the jackets look like... or we thought of so and so."

(Peter Green - "Actually he gave you full credit.")

Nick - "Oh he said Nick went to Templestowe at 4 in the morning, he didn't say we went to Templestowe. Anyway we went out to Templestowe with the expressed aim to tape the morning call of the magpie, that specific Australian sound that I grew up with. We ended up with crows, a bit of kookaburra, cockatoo, blowflies and bellbirds. We had a whole potpourri of natural Australian wildlife. When it came to mixing down in this little smelly studio in New York, Neil was the one who was present and because he's from New Zealand he didn't recognise the significance of any of the Australian birds and we missed out on bellbirds and magpies and ended up with bloody cockatoos… and blowflies."

Neil - "When you think of the word kill eye which is actually spelt e-y-e as a name for the TV set, you'll get a better idea of that song. It's about the nightly horror of watching the world destroy itself on TV."

INTO TEMPTATION

Paul - "Neil writes great ballads. It's really a beautiful piece of music. It's very much Neil and Mitchell."

(Peter Green - "As I leave to put the kettle on for the traditional interview pot of tea I leave the recorder running and I notice Paul leaning closer whispering into the microphone:")

Paul - "Of course I do admit that some of the lyrics on the new album are lyrics that Neil has found scribbled on things in my guitar case or in my old suitcase on the road. I don't want to raise the issue now or go on about it, whatever Neil finds or can craft into a song, I think that's a good thing, but I'd just appreciate now and again that I was acknowledged. Thank you."

Nick - "To me when we first played it, it had an incredibly classical motive running through it that was a chord progression that defied a feel, that either Paul or I could give it in a soulful, rocking feel."

Neil - "Needing a bit of a hug... from your mother. Wanting to get back into the womb. It's about temptation and guilt, something that everybody knows a little about."

MANSION IN THE SLUMS

Paul - "Neil's really happy with the way this one's turned out. We've played it acoustically up front before, so people might have heard parts of it. Once more we got together with the 'gloomster' Mitchell Froom and he made it into a very good song. He really arranged that song in a big way. A lot of that song's arrangement is all Mitchell. Neil of course comes up with the raw material, and Nick and I are the only two people in town who are capable of playing Neil's wonderful ideas."

Nick - "It's a song that doesn't have a chorus, slightly away from the regular format. It was something that Neil wrote when he was walking one night in Hollywood. There's a line in that song that goes 'I'd much rather have a caravan in the hills than a mansion in the slums'. A caravan in America is something that has camels and traces across the desert, while in Australia a caravan goes behind the car. In the U.S. a caravan has a certain amount of mystery to it. All I know about that song is that I painted a caravan on Neil's jacket.
Did Paul tell you about the jacuzzi at our L.A. mansion that I kept destroying? We were all fired up in our bathing costumes ready to get in and all the water drained out. But it was worse for Mike Nesmith's jacuzzi, did you hear about it? Mike Nesmith's wife was videotaping some guests in the jacuzzi and the dog went by and knocked the video camera into the water and electrified them.
The basement of the house I used for my studio to paint the LP cover. I ended up painting three album covers. One is the back, one is the front and I didn't use the other one. The terra cotta tiles on the back of the LP cover are the tiles on the mansion. There are a few references to L.A. on the album cover - there's the mansion roof, the L.A. downtown and some Spanish Crowded House writing. Hollywood is like the slums, it's a very depressed, dangerous area."

Neil - "It's inspired by Los Angeles. It's about how people over there are trying to embrace a hippy lifestyle with all the mod-cons, living in mansions. It's about having it all."

 

TOLM has been my least favorite of the original four albums, and I think it's going to remain there. But reading the insights and perspectives offered here has definitely deepened my appreciation of the album, and I thank you all for that.

 

Our votes for Temple of Low Men:

1-0
2-0
3-1
4-5
5-7
Average: 4.5577

 

Today's song is "She's Not There", a cover of the 1964 Zombies hit written by Rod Argent.

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It does not stream on Spotify (in Europe, anyway.)

The production credit is Martin Armiger. The song was released on the soundtrack of The Crossing (1990 film).

 

One thing to note is that some editions of the soundtrack album for "The Crossing" omits the Crowded House track, so if anyone orders the soundtrack from eBay or Discogs, make sure you get a version with "She's Not There" on it. The song is also available on the "Other Enz - Split Enz & Beyond" double CD that Raven Records released in Australia in 1999.
Various - Other Enz: Split Enz & Beyond

Martin Armiger was, among other things, guitarist in the Australian group The Sports who were very popular there in the early '80s. The Sports and Split Enz toured together in 1980 and have various other connections as well (both Tim Finn and Peter Jones have appeared on solo albums by The Sports' lead vocalist Stephen Cummings)

The Zombies original version of "She's Not There" is on Spotify and also on YouTube, for instance here:

 

Neil and others have complained that this doesn't have any energy, is somehow lacking. I don't hear it. I think it's terrific. It's a real shame that Neil chose to leave it off the DE. 5/5

 

Yes, I wish I had written about Other Enz, which of course is where I have it.

Since this wasn't a Mitchell Froom production, do you happen to know who plays the electric piano? Is it Neil himself?

 

As it's a cover that is familiar to most people from oldies stations, not much need be said of the song itself, which of course is a stone-cold classic which has stood the test of time. It's hard to screw up a seminal song like this and Crowded House do a very competent job with it. I've always really liked the sound of it, particularly the piano and drums. Neil sounds good singing this song, too.

4.3/5

 

That's a good question. In Chris Bourke's book it says that this was recorded in 1989. Mark Hart went to Australia to record some demos with Crowded House in 1989, so maybe this was recorded when he was there? Or it could be a session keyboardist who was at hand when they recorded it. Perhaps @Jaffaman knows?

"The Crossing" is one of Russell Crowe's first movies and apparently it is set in an Australian town in the '60s. I haven't seen the movie so I don't know how "She's Not There" fits in. The soundtrack album mainly consists of various Australian groups and artists performing well-known songs from the '60s. I wonder if Crowded House themselves chose to do "She's Not There" or if they were specifically asked to record that song. I think it's quite good, but I don't think their version is all that different from the original Zombies version, which is very good. To me, a good cover (that is a studio recording and not spontaneously added to the set list in concert) should do something different with the song, something that makes you go "wow!" rather than "oh, nice". Three examples of good cover songs, in my opinion, are Robert Forster's cover of Heart's "Alone", Steve Kilbey's cover of Alice Cooper's "Poison" and Richard Thompson's cover of Britney Spears "Oops… I Did It Again". In each of these cases, the cover version is very, very different to the original and to me surpass the originals. It may help that I'm not keen on the original versions in those cases. Crowded House's cover of "She's Not There", on the other hand, sticks very close to the original version and just lacks that little bit extra to make it really special.

3/5.

 

She's Not There is great. Crowded House and The Zombies are two of my 5 favorite bands, so I was pleased when I found The Crossing soundtrack many years ago. I was slightly disappointed at first listen because my expectations were so high. I soon got over that and now love the track, it's my favorite Neil Finn/Crowded House cover. 4.8/5

 

No, I don't know anything about the recording details. I agree with Neil that it doesn't really add anything to the original, which is sublime, but it still would have been good to have included it on the Deluxe Edition. It fits with Temple's slightly cold, distant, thin, late '80s sound.