Stranger than Fiction, Larger Than Life: the Finn Brothers song-by-song discussion thread

Yes indeed. And that is also what wiped Crowded House out in the US. I mean, explicitly: Gersh took over and he was the guy who put Nine Inch Nails on the map. That music just comes from a different place. Though NIN is brilliant in their (his) own way.

I think Crowded House, thankfully, were more able to fit in with the Britpop scene in the UK. But Tim came from an older school, really. He was 41 at this time.

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But Ive also been thinking about this: I keep asking myself why it matters. There are plenty of great artists who haven't seen the glimpses of success that Tim Finn has -- Robyn Hitchcock springs to mind first for me, but there are literally tons of them: I know, I've weighed them.

I suppose it matters because Chris Bourke and the Finns themselves seem to make a big deal out of it. And it did really seem to shaped Crowded House Mach I's narrative.

I've also been thinking about what you wrote about Tim being more aloof than Neil. I think that has always been true; I think he likes performing but there is probably a reason that he performed in character for the first several years of his career...it wasn't him...it was...some weird...madman who spouted poems and moved like a spastic robot with a short circuit. When I see them perform together (on video, I've never seen them live) Neil seems somehow more relateable as a guy, it's just the way his public persona works. I mean, they are standing next to each other singing in two part harmony the song both of them have written and not saying anything, and their personas still come off as very different.

Tim has a different, more serious aura about him.

Given that the last ten years have seen Tim working on project after project and refusing to release or even, perhaps, record his songs, he may actually deep down not be as ambitious as Neil is. He's obviously driven to create and write songs as he's been doing it for fifty years but you may be right that he doesn't crave a huge audience like Neil does or at least like Neil did. Maybe he did in his youth, but I also think there might be a lot of unconscious self-sabotage in some of his or even both of their choices.

 

Man, I *want* to like this song so much. Lyrically I've been through exactly that and so it should really land, but something about the style and the production and maybe even the delivery just... it should, but it doesn't. It actually grates on me a little bit. Maybe harsh due to my whole numbers policy, but 2/5.

 

Yes, it's worth pondering why chart positions matter, really. As a fan, you want your favourite artists to be successful enough to continue to make records and tours, and on that score both brothers have been very successful compared to many other artists. Split Enz were huge in Australia and New Zealand in the early '80s, with three straight #1 albums in both countries, charted very well in Canada, Netherlands and other countries, also did well in the States (top 40 - not "huge" but in terms of records sold to reach the top 40 heights), Tim enjoyed success with Escapade in Australia, New Zealand and many European countries, with Woodface in many countries, Before & After reached top 30 in the UK and so on. I bet neither Finn brother have had to resort to having a "regular" nine-to-five job in the last 40 years (unlike many Swedish recording and touring artists I'm friends with, for example). From 1976 onwards, almost every album they've worked on have been released all over the world (an achievement in itself), they've been able to tour in several continents and on a creative level, they've both been very prolific, have worked with many top name producers and musicians and so on. I bet many up-and-coming artists would love to emulate what the Finn brothers have achieved.

In Mike Chunn's book, it says that when they grew up, their parents would get Tim and Neil to perform for guests whenever they hosted parties at the family home and that Tim would be a reluctant performer while Neil enjoyed it more. It also says that in the early days of Split Ends, Tim was quite terrified of live performances and one way of dealing with that was to have his eyes shut throughout gigs. Maybe he's just a more introverted personality.

I agree entirely that both brothers on some subconscious level have both self-sabotaged their careers a bit - not choosing the optimal first single off an album, cancelling a big U.S. tour on short notice. I think they are happy with what they have achieved and not willing to do every little promotion thing they are offered. They both have families to consider and I've got the impression that Tim's been keen to be with his family as much as possible in the last 20 years. I can well imagine he loves writing for music theatre, being able to work at home and not be away from his family for extended periods. I read an interview with Harper recently where he said that Tim had always been present for all his sports activities etc and who can blame Tim if he prefers family life to touring these days?

Besides, the Finns have a devoted bunch of fans who have so far filled 214 pages discussing their songs - that's got to count for something too!

 

I understand why people have been less than enthusiastic about the Langer/Winstanley produced songs. Despite much of the "frantic" arrangements, I think I'm one of the few Elvis fans that enjoyed his two albums with Langer/Winstanley, and I really like much of the work they did with Madness. I haven't listened to their work on Schnell Fenster's Sound of Trees for several years, but if I recall correctly, those were also quite busy. Langer and Winstanley must have moved with the times, because their production style at the time of their work with Tim sounds derivative of sounds from 10 years earlier and out of step.

Regarding You've Changed, the song is soul-baring, but for my tastes it wasn't translated into a piece of artful writing, and I really don't like the arrangement. Sorry Tim, 2/5

 

Let's see, where are we?

"You've Changed": a sentiment I suspect many of us have felt at some time in our lives, and certainly a worthy subject for a song. But musically this does nothing for me; it's tepid pseudo-funk with no melodic invention. 2/5

I have some thoughts about "Before and After" that I'd like to share--I've actually listened to it a fair bit over the past week, I just haven't had a chance to organize my thoughts.

 

It's not the Stevie Wonder pastiche that annoys me about "You've Changed", but that fact that it's a one-chord song. Only John Lee Hooker and J.J. Cale can pull that off convincingly. And no, this sort of slow-burn disco groove does not suit our man. 1.5/5

 

(James Brown...)

Our votes for "You've Changed"
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Average: 2.45

 

Today's song is "Secret Heart", written by Tim Finn and produced by Clive Langer and Alan Winstanley.

Another song which does not stream in any big public forum, "Secret Heart" was released as a B-side to the Persuasion double EP in the UK in 1993.

Tim later rewrote the lyrics and rerecorded this song as a demo and released it on MySpace. I plan to hold that version up for discussion when the time comes; but today's discussion will centre on the 1993 demo.
Lyric:

Emily waits for the summer
She waits for the distant voices calling, they're calling
It's only up there up on the Hudson
Falling of autumn leaves reminds you what's behind you

Change is like the nursery:
It's the place where everything grows
Time moves like a river
Kiss the banks and on we go again
All falling apart
Who holds the key to unlock my secret heart?
Falling apart
You hold the key to unlock my secret heart

An old-fashioned plane upon the airstrip
People who can't afford the airfare, they go nowhere
Emily waves to the gallery
Somewhere her secret heart is calling, yeah it's calling

Change is like the nursery:
It's the place where everything grows
Time moves like a river
Kiss the banks and on we go again
All falling apart
Who holds the key to unlock my secret heart?
Falling apart
You hold the key to unlock my secret heart, yeah
My secret heart, oh, now

Change is like the nursery:
It's the place where everything grows
Time moves like a river
Kiss the bank and on we go again
All falling apart
Who holds the key to unlock my secret heart?
Falling apart
You hold the key to unlock my secret heart

 

Of all the Langer/Winstanley songs that Tim recorded for Before and After, this one sticks out. It's the only one that's neither going for some form of R&B nor dancy pop (like "Always Never Now".) This is a rock ballad, with an interesting arrangement that includes a rather uncertain, eerie violin, some icy keyboards and a beautiful melody. I know I've been sort of running, salmon-like (and with much the same motivation as that noble animal), against the stream with these B-sides: I really like/love the songs we've discussed the last two days: and the same goes for this. But it's world is very different than the others'. I wish there were a line up and more details of the recording, but never mind. Perhaps it's just the same line up as the other songs, but plus the violin, which may be sounds like the same violinist as played on "In Your Sway."

There are some elements in the the sound (keyboards, some of the guitar tones) that under normal circumstances I would consider a little dated...but, you know, it's high December, very dark outside during the very short day, that in my town ends at, like, 3.30 pm.
We're in that dark, busy stressful period before we break for Christmas and the sky is grey, the wind is cold. Even when the sun is out, it shines from such a low angle that everything is dimmed, and I live in a mountain valley so the darkness is just amplifed. We need to put up the tree to bring some merriness and light, but too much to do and too little time.

And this music, including the keyboards and sort of 80s guitar effects actually kind of accompanies all that very well, so I'll say it's not dated: it's just December-y. "Emily waits for the summer..."

Lyrically, it's also different than the other three B-sides that graced Hit the Ground Running. It seems to be a portrait of a woman , Emily. This song might be tangentially concerned with break up, but rather than the bitter, angry, heartbroken vibe of "You've Changed" or "Not Made of Stone" the lyric here jibes more with the theme of "Persuasion", which it was released with: change is like a nursery it's the place where everything goes/time moves like a river Kiss the bank and on we go again" is a great pair of lines that speak to the same theme of growing acceptance in Persuasion.

But there's something else going on here; we also get an interesting glimpse into Emily's entire situation as she gazes at an airport and reflects that "people who can't afford the airfare, they go nowhere." Yet" somewhere her secret heart is calling."

This is the kind of effortless lyrical touch that Tim occasionally pulls off... It makes me wonder if Emily's financial situation and thus her geographical limitations might be limiting her from finding her eventual fate, her "secret heart", her "calling". It's an interesting concept and it ties this song in thematically with "Can't Do Both" and "Verde" in a way...in all three songs, Tim seems to see the realities of economics and poverty as being limitations to love and personal growth. A bit depressing, but there's some truth in that.

5/5

 

"Secret Heart" is easily the keeper among the Before & After studio b-sides as far as I'm concerned. This is a song that I absolutely would have moved any one of "I Found It", "Can't Do Both", "Many's The Time (In Dublin)", or "Always Never Now" off of the album in order to make room for. "Secret Heart" doesn't really even sound like a Langstanley production to my ears; it's quite subtle for them. The violin adds an air of mystery here (much like it does on Dylan's Desire album) and the melody is rich and layered, with some cool effects throughout, particularly on the verses. It's too bad that this song was relegated to the b-side of the "Persuasion" single; it certainly deserved a better fate.

4.1/5

 

"Secret Heart" is a wonderful track and really should have been on the album. It has a lush, appealing melody and the blend of instruments gives the song a sense of drama and mystery, matching the lyrics. Every time I hear this song I discover some new dimensions about it, it really just keeps growing. The song says that Emily waits for the summer, how autumn leaves reminds you what's behind you and that both distant voices and her secret heart are calling. Some profound change is waiting to happen, but not in the moment of the song, first it appears that Emily will have to be patient during both winter and spring. It's intriguing what change she is waiting for and why it can't happen right away, but sometimes in life patience is a virtue too, which is a cliche but not easy to actually live by. In the chorus, the narrator says that "you" (not necessarily Emily) holds the key to unlock his secret heart. I think the phrase "secret heart" can be interpreted in many ways. One interpretation might be that it refers to forbidden feelings, falling in love with someone who is not the spouse, but given the song's sense of mystery it might also mean that both the narrator and Emily have a longing for a change to become their true selves, which might be something very different than what family and friends expect of them and such a change could also cause conflict with family and friends (if, for instance, the narrator has grown up within a Catholic family and the change involves converting to Buddhism). The line in the second verse, "Emily waves to the gallery", sounds to me as if she for the time being feels it necessary to keep up appearances to try and maintain the image others have about her.
I also like how the chorus says that change is the place where everything grows. Instead of fearing change, that is a positive message about embracing change. The line "Time move likes a river" reminds me of the philospher (I have forgotten the name right now) who said something along the lines of "you can't jump into the same river twice", meaning that even if the river is geographically the same, the exact combination of winds, waves, flow and water temperature will never be exactly the same twice, it's constantly changing even though the river stays in the same place.
I'm probably nowhere near what Tim had in mind with these lyrics, but it's a lovely and fascinating song that I keep returning to. Wonderful song.
4,8/5

 

Totally agree with Robcar with Secret Heart being the keeper of the bonus tracks from Before and After .

I definitely think a case could be made for it to be on the album instead of Can’t do Both that’s for sure .It was strange that Tim decided to re make it many years later .

4/5 for me

 

Secret Heart should have been on the album. It's my 4th most played song from the Before & After sessions. Everything the previous posters have said sounds right. 4.3/5

 

I quite like Secret Heart, maybe not quite as much as some here, but I do agree that it should have been an album track. There's something about the melody of the verse that doesn't quite work, but the chorus is strong both melodically and lyrically. Not a true classic, but a strong effort. 4/5

 

Secret Heart is fine, but feels a little plodding to me at points. It just doesn't work for me the way it does for some others... I can't put my finger on what it is about it that doesn't work for me, but it just feels like it doesn't go anywhere to me. I don't dislike it in that it's perfectly pleasant background music...

3/5

 

I'm aware, by the by, of how poorly written this post is - I should always proof before I hit send.

 

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F-

 

"Secret Heart" sounds like a classic TF ballad without the drama of, say, "I Hope I Never". Nice melody, good singing, the production a little on the bombastic side but I can live with that. 3.5/5

Minor quibble with Lance's lyric transcription. I'm pretty sure he sings "It's lonely up there...", not "It's only..."

 

Our votes for "Secret Heart"

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Average: 4,0875

 

Today's song is "Remember and Forget [demo]" written by Tim Finn. I'm afraid I don't have any more details other than that it was recorded in Sydney, Australia in 1992 and NOT at Periscope in Melbourne. I assume it was produced by Tim Finn.

"Remember and Forget" was released on I Like It Rare compilation from Frenz of the Enz fan club label in 2001. It doesn't seem to stream.

Lyrics transcribed as well as possible below: corrections welcome.

Dance to remember and dance to forget
Roll back the carpet and push back the chairs
Kiss all the babies that haven't been born yet
Dance to remember and forget

Dance to remember and dance to forget
(get?) in the kitchen when the kids back from jail
Break all the habits that haven't been formed yet
Dance to remember and forget

From the friends you've lost and the lovers too
All the good and the bad and everything that you do
And for all your tomorrows and the yesterdays too
For the kids who will follow, embarassed by you

Dance to remember and dance to forget
Kick up the dust and a (six?) cigaretts
Kiss all the babies that haven't been born yet
Dance to remember and forget

dance to remember and dance to forget
break all the promises that haven't been made yet
dance for the babies who haven't been formed yet
dance to remember and forget

For the big time to come, for the waiting in line
For the moment that calls in the bedroom we lie
For the mink and the rust And the rust that you get
For the drugs you don't take and the words you regret

Dance to remember and dance to forget
Push me in the front and push me in the back, yeah
I'll come along but I don't want to yet
Dance to remember and forget
come on! come on! come on!

You heard me?
Dance to remember and dance to forget
Hasn't the song affected you yet?
I'd rather have you but I don't want it yet
Dance to remember and forget
Come on! come on

dance to remember!
dance to forget!
I come to get it !
I can't forget a name...
Don't call me baby and the dance girl is wet
Dance to remember and forget

For the blue-eyed punk on the vacant lot
For the maniac who wants what he's already got
For the uncle whose drunk and the auntie who's sad
For the nephew that hates you when you're all(.....?)

Dance to remember and dance to forget
Come on come on come on
You haven't seen the last of you yet
Kiss all the babies who haven't been born yet
Dance to remember and forget
Take it away! take it away! take it away!

(That'll be ****in' excellent! )

 

An edgy fast-paced danceable rock number, this is a love-it-or-hate-it song I suppose: the melody is repetitive and rather reminiscent of some of Paul Hester's rockier numbers with the Largest Living Things (albeit from later on in the nineties).

Come to think of it, the lyrics remind me a bit of Paul too, though the poetic turns of phrases are more Tim. There's a dark tone and an inexplicable angry feel to the lyric and the music both; at the same time, I can tell that Tim and whoever he's playing with is having a ball.

This is a demo, but it has a pretty full-fledged sound -- a bit of an 80s Split Enz thing going but with a simpler, more punky feel. It certainly doesn't fit on Before & After, though if he had had the clout to release a double vinyl/longer CD he might have filled a side with these of vaguely post-punk demos. This is by far the hardest and edgiest of them all, though.

3.9/5

 

Speaking of fan club releases... I've heard some vague rumours that there's some kind of popular annual seasonal holiday coming up soon, something involving a guy owning reindeers(?). In 1983, the very first fan club release was a Split Enz Christmas 7" single, issued on green vinyl in tribute to fan club president Peter Green. Side A featured the Enz (Tim, Neil, Eddie and Noel - Nigel was apparently sick that day) attempting various traditional Christmas songs, while side B featured spoken messages from the band (including Tim impersonating the then-newborn Liam as well as the absent Nigel), a send-up of a then-current Cold Chisel song and a brief tribute to Peter Green. Both sides of this fan club Christmas single can be heard on this YouTube link:

 

"Remember & Forget" isn't really much of a song but the lyrics are interesting and there IS an angry, screw-the-world sort of vibe to the track. The dirty electric guitar that runs through the track sort of reinforces this edgy mood. It's certainly a dance-rock sort of track but there isn't really much in the way of melodic progression here, which means that the song gets wearying to listen to rather quickly. I can't see this one having been worked on much beyond this recording, but who knows? I'm glad we finally got to hear it on the I Like It Rare EP in 2001, but this one doesn't make the cut for my Best of Tim Finn playlist.

2.9/5

 

The more I think about it, the more the song reminds me of "Skin Feeling." The vocal melody is a little different but the groove of the guitar and drums sounds very similar to me.

 

Remember and Forget sounds to me like Tim worked up a dance track and then improvised a stream of consciousness set of lyrics. If that's the case, not bad. It might have turned into something quite interesting had he decided to continue working on it. On the other hand, he did have plenty of "dance numbers" during this time, so I'm glad he moved on. I'm grateful that Peter Green made the effort to put together the I Like It Rare CDs.
Another 2.5/5