Stranger than Fiction, Larger Than Life: the Finn Brothers song-by-song discussion thread

Listening to live shows, there were times he was fantastic as a backing vocalist. There were other times he was completely off, but I guess that's live music for you.

I have been thinking about Paul (and Mark) in relation to Liam as a backing vocalist and lead vocalist -- I have pretty much everything all three put out; and I think that as singers they are all about equal:great as harmony vocalists, and as lead singers, best in small doses.

 

"Ocean Emmanuelle" is pleasant enough and has the virtue of Liam not giving in to his annoying impulse to stick a heavy guitar part or some weird noises in the middle just to surprise people. Also his voice, which I don't generally rate very highly, actually sounds ok here because I suspect that by now in his career he knows how to write songs that he will not struggle to sing. But pleasant is as good as it gets, as it just meanders a bit repetitively though to the end. So while I quite enjoyed it while it was playing, I cannot imagine deliberately seeking it out, or remembering much about it later.

3/5

 

Argh, I've Gallen behind again.

I was never going to have the time and energy to listen to both the iTunes sessions from the Dizzy Heights tour and the Neil/Paul Kelly album (I don't have Spotify) in one day, especially with Dreamers Are Waiting looming. I remember liking th ePaul Kelly album, but didn't revisit it. I did listen to a couple of tracks from the Dizzy Heights tour, and they convinced me that I made a mistake by skipping that tour, even though I didn't much like the album. I should have remembered that a number of songs from Try Whistling This and One Nil/One All showed better live than in the studio ("Anytime" is the most obvious example, but there are others). Ah well. At the time, I was still feeling burned by the dismal Pajama Club concert.

The Neil/Eddie Vedder "Throw Your Arms Around Me" is just okay. I liked Vedder's work on 7 Worlds Collide, but this version of the classic song is just lifeless. (I think my favorite version, even though it's incomplete, may be the one with the boys singing to Dame Edna on the Joan Rivers Show in 1987 or so).

"Through the Valley" is a nice enough song, with some interesting turns, but ultimately it's nothing exceptional.

"Ocean Emmanuel" isn't a bad album opener, but as others have noted it's more soundscape than song; it loses my interest over its last two minutes or so. As a general matter, I'm not a big fan of open-octave singing (yes, that includes Squeeze), and while it's almost necessary here--the melody isn't strong enough to carry the song as a single line, and the shift from open octaves to harmony and back is somewhat effective--it still doesn't quite work for me. 3/5

 

Ocean Emmanuelle

I think this is a good song. But, the arrangement and performance doesn't work for me. The melody is subtle, and I think a more prominent in-you-face vocal would help showcase the melody better.

The arrangement is good, and it's an interesting sound all told. But, again, I don't think it really showcases the song a bit. It makes a song that I would sound better with acoustic guitar and a strong vocal into something perhaps less interesting than it could be.

The song has many interesting aspects, instrumentally, and with the melody. However, the arrangement makes it all merge into one a bit. And, I sort of lose focus listening to it. There isn't really a climax to the song, or a real payoff. Even though the fundamental song could easily have one.

It's nice. But, in this form, not excellent to my ears.

3.5/5

 

I kind of feel that is the whole point of every track on this album.

It totally works for me, although I realize that won’t work for everyone.

 

"Ocean Emanuelle" is a strong opening track for this album, creating an eerie, enigmatic and haunting atmosphere by adding layers and layers of instruments without overpowering the actual song. It really gives me as a listener a sense of a musical journey that keeps growing and taking unexpected turns. Fine singing by Liam to.
4,4/5

 

I just have a question...I very often seem to see this idea of a song having or needing a "pay-off." I'm not criticizing that -- however, I'm not sure what it means. When you say "climax", @HitAndRun, I think know what you mean: I guess an intensification: crescendoes or some sort of jump to a next level energy-wise either by means of a well written bridge or a key change or something; or in some cases just a particularly good lyrical twist at the end. I'm not sure if songs need that, but certainly it is appreciated when it happens.

Is that just the same as "pay -off?" If not how is "pay-off" defined musically?

I would agree that this song does not have typical pop dynamics and I also agree that is the point.

First of all as we go through the album, I want to say, you will find that I think that song-for-song it is actually probably my least favorite album in Liam's catalogue, even if the album is stronger than the sum of its parts, so I'm not being overprotective of the album.

Like if I was making a LIam playlist I can only think of two off hand I would include from this album (though I reserve the right to change my mind over the next eleven days!)

However, for me the key to this song and the album finally dawned on me when I realized that the production, which at first felt was interesting, cool-sounding, but kind of seems to work against the song, was the point. It's incredibly detailed production, actually, amazingly so. I definitely believe that Liam worked super-hard on it, as he said at the time.

I've spent the day poring over Liam interviews from this time (there aren't very many, it didn't take very long) and a couple of things he seems to have highlighted: that the album is meant to be an exploration of different subjective realities, specifically inspired by seeing Manhattan across the river from the studio he lived in -- he recorded the album late at night --and feeling like "every fantasy and fear I'd ever had" was actually taking place at that moment somewhere in that huge city. And also that he wanted to "get what was in his head onto the record" and he really struggled with that, manipulating the basic tracks he and his bandmates had recorded.

His idea of "nihilism"-- which may or may not be common, I don't know -- is that we never really know what reality is and therefore we must create reality. I think that's a very true thing and I also think that the concept has become incredibly dominant in this current Age of Propaganda we live in.

So I see the production of this song, (and much of the album), which basically seems like a typical lost love song --as some sort of psychedelic representation of Manhattan or Modern Life itself, -- chaotic, and not necessarily traditionally beautiful or harmonious -- then it dawned on me that the album might be sort of "about" the human soul somehow existing in the midst of this inhuman environment. Like , under all the noise, through all this synthesized weirdness you still see this vulnerable human, aching, longing to somehow cleanse himself of the dirt and grime of modern life and become pure in "the Ocean Emannuelle" (the wording of which is spiritual --as is the whole idea of water in literature or dreams -- but also implies (to me) the word immaculate.

And anyway that to me, is the "pay off. " The realization that he was willing to almost --but not quite-- ruin a rather pretty little folk-pop song in order to express that concept or, that, like, picture. Which to me is awesome. Because this song for me is an example of a 3/5 song being significantly elevated by the production. Tune in tomorrow when

Spoiler

A 1/5 is elevated to a 3/5

 

@Lance LaSalle - when I use the expression pay-off (freely borrowed from @HitAndRun, but may be a different definition) - I mean that the song appears to be leading me towards something and then it doesn't happen. So this could be a crescendo or something similar, but not always. I nearly always think of it in terms of tension within the song, that is, there are peaks and valleys within the musical narrative.
It may be that this isn't the point of The Nihlist (I don't know having never listened to it before). I certainly know I've commented on the lack of tension within Liam's songs previously. That's not necessarily a deal-breaker. It's just that I can lose focus if I feel like I'm being led towards something and then it never appears.

That being said, everything we are listening to in the foreseeable future is all going to be single hot-takes from me. I'm a completely newbie to all these songs.

 

Ocean Emannuelle - great start to a great album 5/5

 

"Ocean Emmanuelle" is really cool and has a neat feel to it - I like the layering and happenings. I also enjoy vocals an octave apart, so I'm not gonna knock that. I feel like this might be really high if I had listened to it more. I have had the album since it came out, and for whatever reason never really spent any time with it. If I keep listening to this record after we go through this exercise, check back with me to see if I knock some of my scores up a notch or two...

3.8/5

 

Our votes for "Ocean Emannuelle"

1-0
2-0
3-5
4-6
5-4
Average: 3.92

 

Today's song is "The Nihilist", written and produced by Liam Finn; recorded by Liam Finn and Jol Mulholland.


Liam Finn: vocals, guitar, bass, synthesizers
Jol Muholland: synthesizers
Elroy Finn: drums

A live version of this song was released on the "streaming album" Live with the Dream Time on the Roof of [the end].

Outlaw in dirty hair
In cold blood from lying underground
Your best move, you look good
I wonder what went wrong
You don't know your own band
I don't get off at four
I don't get off at four
You driver, you taxicab
White roses, lying through my teeth
My dear ghost, you look dead
I'm mad at everyone
Goodbye, this ain't fair
I made it on my own
Wishing you were all my girl
Die young, live fast
I don't get off at four
I don't get off at four

Officer, give me a chance
Untie my hands
I never hurt no one
A better love in consequence
You feeling lucky punk?

Don't move, just stand there
I hope to fire a nihilist dystopia
Jump girls and give 'em (?}
"Go have a threesome"
I'm never offered one
Unhappy man, he looks gay
I'll try anything once
Goodbye, this ain't fair
You know I saw you at that diner with that dinosaur
Die young, you live fast
I don't get off at four

Here lies devotion
I hear the cats and the dogs outside
Refugees to love
And so we practice on ourself
It must be dark and cold below your belt
That's why I'm numb

 

This is a live performance from the Live with the Dream Team on the Roof of [the end] streaming album.

 

This is a track that I love, but I imagine some will absolutely hate. It just has a sound that seems polarizing. "The Nihilist" is weird, off-kilter, yet still fairly accessible. It's right up my alley, musically. I feel like Liam may have been channeling Connan Mockasin while writing this track. I love the obscure, spunky swagger of the vocals that have a bit of an attitude to them. That coupled with the fuzzy, lo-fi electronic effects, and this is a winner for me.

I will say, as much as I can somewhat enjoy the strange sounding outro, it goes on wayyyy too long. Most of the points I'm taking off my score for the song are for that reason. Otherwise, this is a really cool track that's wholly unique.

4.1/5

 

This song is really nuts -- hard to take until you've listened to it a lot, which I suspect most people wouldn't do as it is intentionally grating.

There's a strange, feverish slew of impressions and, overall, what with the weird looped vocals and various gritty textures, I get an impression of a rather criminal mind, desperately horny and alone, sweating his ass off in the humidity, sort of going insane, hyperventilating in the summer heat and just muttering to himself alone, maybe drunk or having a bad trip, in this big impersonal city.

I also get the sense that this character has been somehow emasculated by a past lover and now is sort of going mad from that. It's kind of a scary little song, actually.It feels really personal to me, at the same time, you get the sense that this is a character and not actually Liam himself, or maybe just Liam when he's really, really alone and having a bad night. I've had nights like this.

The song itself is repetitive, intentionally grating, and there is little respite from the hyperventilating panic that this instills in the listener. This pretty much does away with any pretence of being a conventional "song"and seems constructed from bits and shards of music. It's all production and art. Damn, I like it more every time I listen to it.

4.3/5


I like the live version up there a lot, it's interesting to see them do a song like this live and it somehow kind of works, perhaps better than the studio version in some ways.

 

Generally in stereotypical pop/rock songs the verse will build tension, and the chorus will release it. Weather With You is a clear example of this. If the song just contained the verses then it would build tension but have no pay-off. The chorus for the song provides the pay-off. The part of the song that relieves the tension and gives us the simple hummable hook line. With the choruses, it wouldn't have such.

It doesn't have to be a verse-chorus song. E.g. in Billy Joel's 'Just The Way You Are', the hook like where he sings the title at the end of the verse functions as the payoff for me. The bridge also provides significant contrast, which for me is a payoff.

A payoff could be a transition to a stronger rhythm, or a more recognisable guitar riff, or any one of a number of things.

I'm not an expert on this, but I know that the book 'Writing Music for Hit Songs' by Jai Josefs discusses building tension and providing payoff.

There are different types of songs and music tracks, and for some a stereotypical pop/rock payoff is expected, and for others not. Some can be interesting in other ways. However, for Ocean Emmanuel, I don't find that there's quite enough there to maintain my interest, and feel that a more traditional payoff is what I expect.

 

OK, I got you.

 

As with all tracks from this album, this is my first listen, and like the previous track, I was pretty impressed with this one. The vocal is good (he seems to be getting better with the falsetto), and the funky production keeps it all pretty interesting. Not sure that the song itself would stand on its own without that production, but that isn't a deal-breaker for me. Not sure whether the extended coda needs to be extended quite that much, but overall I have a pretty positive impression of this album from the first two tracks: 4/5

 

There's a meaning-changing typo that I cannot edit. I should say:

 

The Nihilist

This has a good beat that sustains the track. I hear this more as an ambient piece that washes over me than as a song, and I don’t pay attention to the lyrics. There’s a very nice clean, melodic guitar line that pops up in the mix early in the track. The track gets a little too noisy and cluttered as it goes on, but when I’m listening to the album in its entirety, I don’t notice that as much. Listening to this as an isolated track doesn’t do it any favors.

3.25/5

 

The Nihilist - Single listen. I really like the rhythm of this song and I can see glimmers of how I might really like this song if I listened to it a few more times. It is a bit grating and I'm definitely not paying attention to the lyrics (not sure if that's an asset or liability). The outro is definitely too long. I like what's in it, but it's definitely too long. I'll circle back later to listen to the live version because I'd like to hear a live version of this unconventional song.

3.6/5

 

The Nihilist: I’m learning that a small number of his songs I really like. The rest of his songs have his “signature sound” which annoys me: quirky bassline, soaring/yelling chorus, inexplicable extended chaotic outro.

This song sounds like a song a “punk rock” kid on Beverly Hills 90210 would be thrashing to at a party on a “very special episode” focusing on the dangers of teen drug use. Like an out of touch TV executive’s idea of edgy.

Twee isn’t quite the right word, but to me it just sounds like he is trying too hard to be artsy or weird or deep. So these are the sounds in his head that need to be recorded? I hate the overcomplicated rhythm section. It sounds to me like so many of his others and I am fatigued by the repetition.

1.5/5

 

"The Nihilist" is a good example of what I think I understand as @HitAndRun 's concept of not having a payoff, it just meanders along in the same vein. Even if I liked the weird sound of it (which I really do not) I would still expect some sort of changes to keep my interest.

2/5

 

Did any other Australians catch Crowded House hosting "rage" over the weekend? Afterwards, they played 70 minutes of Crowded House videos and then another hour of Split Enz videos. Mind you, that started around 4:45am. Thank goodness for video recorders.

 

I envy those of you who like "The Nihilist" (the song, that is) and have found the key to enjoy it. To my ears, it is just tuneless and directionless noise, not my cup of tea at all.
1/5