Stranger than Fiction, Larger Than Life: the Finn Brothers song-by-song discussion thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Lance LaSalle, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. therunner

    therunner Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    "Wrestle With Dad" is so aurally unpleasant that I find it impossible to play all the way through, and the only plus point is that being the last track makes it easy to skip.

    This might well be the worst Liam 'song' yet (although it's up against some stiff competition).

    1/5
     
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  2. StefanWq

    StefanWq Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallentuna, Sweden
    "Wrestle With Dad" has a lot of elements I usually dislike - distorted vocals, lots of noise and sound effects for the sake of it. So it surprises me that I actually like this track. The drums have a sense of nightmare-ish urgency about them and that gives the song a unique character. This is definitely a song that is more than the sum of its parts and I think it's a very good album closer.
    4/5
     
  3. jcr64

    jcr64 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indiana
    The basic groove of "Wrestle with Dad" has a "nightmarish urgency," as @StefanWq says, and to that extent it's oddly (if uncomfortably) compelling. It is much too long, however, and is too burdened by :Liam's quirks--the distorted drums, the electronic frippery, the stubborn refusal to honor things like key and pitch. I'vepreviously expressed respect for Liam's talent, even while I've often found little enjoyment from it. This, though, just strikes me as self-indulgent noise.

    1.5/5
     
  4. dthomas850

    dthomas850 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Wrestle with Dad - good album closer 4.5/5
     
  5. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Our votes for "Wrestle With Dad"

    1-1
    2-3
    3-4
    4-3
    5-1
    Average: 2.6625
     
  6. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Today, The Nihilist.
     
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  7. drewrclv9

    drewrclv9 Forum Resident

    I peg The Nihilist as my favorite Liam solo album, just edging out FOMO. Some of the highly experimental stuff like "Arrow", "I", and "Miracle Glance" don't impress me much, but this really is an album of mostly strong tracks otherwise. "Snug as Fk", "Helena Bonham Carter", and "Dreary Droop" are phenomenal songs, and right up there with "Gather to the Chapel", "I'll Be Lightning", "Cold Feet", and "Chase the Seasons" as my favorite Liam solo tracks.

    I would certainly call it Liam's most experimental album as a whole, building on the electronic playground sound that FOMO started. Like Lance said a few days ago, the album is a couple tracks too long, but at least it isn't four tracks too long like I'll Be Lightning is. While most probably wouldn't agree, I think a Nihilist without "I" and "Miracle Glance" is a better Nihilist than the one we have. That aside, this is an album filled to the brim with little sounds from outer space, which, for some albums, can sometimes just be annoying, but I really feel like most of them are placed extremely well here. There's a really high level of song craft over most of this record, whether it's those well-implemented sounds, or melodic highs like on the songs I mentioned above. I don't even have to go into detail regarding the vocal harmonies on this album; Liam and EJ Barnes' voices were made for each other. End of Story. They're up there with one of my absolute favorite vocalist combos of John Doe and Exene Cervenka of X.

    I think Liam has proven many-a-time before this album that he's an accomplished artist, and not just "Neil's son", which is obviously an easy mindset to fall into. Whether it's Aiming for Your Head, Champagne in Seashells, or this particular LP, I thoroughly enjoy the catalog of music he's put out. Maybe Lightsleeper a little less than the rest, but still, he's a pretty consistent artist, in my opinion. I'm pretty excited to hear he's working on new solo material, and I really believe The Nihilist is the one to beat in terms of overall quality and exciting sounds.

    4.2/5
     
  8. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    The Nihilist sees Liam leaving the melodic folk-pop of I'll Be Lightning further behind and continuing down the largely 80s New Wave influenced road that FOMO started on -- but it's a much, much more developed sound compared to that album.

    My overall impression is that of the human soul crying out in the wilderness of a stark and inhuman city landscape, buried by noise, hidden under crossed electric wires, pulsating in the midst of concrete and grafritti and urban rubble. It's an album that addresses the madness that comes on you in isolation and yearns for home and distant love. I think it's brilliant, pretty much, and it is stronger than the sum of its parts: the songs I rated most lowly on this discussion actually sounded so good in context that I feel that I should re-vote on some of them -- all save one, "Wrestle With Dad", which I find increasingly unbearable and think I overrated yesterday. It's more like a 1.7, not a 2.7.

    I think, to be clear, the first five songs are simply brilliant. I do think the album sags a bit on tracks 6 and seven But as a whole it does sound good together. Still, I think that Liam here has run into a problem that I'm encountering on other threads with other artists (especially Prince and Robyn Hitchcock): the inability to cut his work.

    It is a very long album; this is usually not a problem as when it comes to my listening, I cut songs for playlists with zestful relish; but it feels hard to cut because the flow of the album is great. It's got a very uncommercial flow, but it's a sequence that seems to say "Listen, but not mindlessly"; it's a sequence that challenges the listener, which takes some balls, but again, I think that we, as Finn fans, are so used to the idea of Neil and Tim basically working overtime to please us, and I think that Liam is a different kind of artist: even if the bare bones of his talent are not too far from his father and uncle.

    Nevertheless for my personal playlist, I am cutting "Wrestle With Dad", as I strongly dislike it. I might cut "Dreary Droop" and "Miracle Glance", though I think they are an important textural contrast to the first 5/12ths of the album, so probably not. I can see a case for dropping "I". But I tend to like dreamy instrumentals and instrumentals in general more than the next schmoe.

    In the end, it's just going to have to be a longish playlist. Maybe I could fade "Wrestle With Dad" out with Audacity or something. Or end it with the rather dull but less annoying "Filter In My Mouth."

    And I'm thinking now that Liam struggles with closing songs both on FOMO and this one: he ends them both with abrasive, yet melodic rockers that just aren't that good and are far, far too long.

    On a short double album, the word "filler" springs to mind, even though it's a word that I have a strong distaste for.

    I would say that five of the last six albums we've covered have been highly experimental and indie rockish -- Barb, Pajama Club, FOMO, Dizzy Heights and The Nihilist.

    Of those five albums for me this is definitely the best -- I do like it more than Dizzy Heights, maybe it feels like this kind of experimentation is more natural for Liam and less natural for Neil (even though Neil has always had this kind of thing lurking in the background of his music, the decision to bring it to the fore so late in his career seems like both a self-conscious decision and also, in the end, a bit of a hedged bet, much as Try Whistling This feels like a hedged bet.)

    I overrated FOMO, which I think in retrospect is maybe a 3.5/5. I almost changed my vote but there was so much drama around that album's discussion here that I just couldn't linger on the topic any longer and it wouldn't have made much of a difference overall anyway.

    But I'm not overrating this one when I give it a 4.3/5. I don't enjoy it as much as "I'll Be Lightning's sweet, sweet melodies, but damn...I respect it more and I really love it. I do think there's a 5/5 album hiding in here, though. This will be entering regular rotation on my turntable. My figurative turntable, that is, as I don't have a turntable.

    A word about the sound. It occurred to me recently that Liam might have severe hearing damage. I mean, recently I've seen pictures of Neil holding Liam onstage during a Split Enz concert. He's been banging on drums since he was a toddler. He grew up on the road in a rock band. And something tells me Betchadupa was ridiculously loud in concert.

    The sound of his albums is so odd; when I listen and I play with the equalizer it makes it much better and I hear all these cool details that are buried by this massive, but unspecific, low end. This goes for BARB, FOMO and this album. It's more than bad mastering. It's weird mixing.

    Is it possible that he doesn't hear low frequencies very well? It would explain why his mixes are so weird. Or is that just the trend (as both Dizzy Heights and The View Is Worth the Climb suffered from similar problems.) At first I thought that maybe Roundhead Studios was to blame -- like one of the three recording rooms there was just really bad, or something; but here we have an album that wasn't recorded there at all, though it wasn't recorded in a proper studio either, I suppose. So I think it's just the way he hears things is different than the way I hear things, and while I have some fairly normal hearing loss for my age, it's not so drastic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
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  9. HitAndRun

    HitAndRun Forum Resident

    I'm not going to give a numeric vote for The Nihilist, as I'm not too familiar with the album. And, I don't have time to listen to it several times over which I feel I'd need to in order to give it a fair crack of the whip.

    With Liam albums, there is often a (subjective, I believe) lack of variation within songs, but variation between songs. So that the album in some way makes the songs work better in context than they do alone. I *suspect* that this would apply to The Nihilist as well.

    There is no 'hit single' on this album, and it seems that as people said Liam was not aiming for one. It's uncompromisingly his own music, made for himself.

    If I can go all pretentious again, I'm made to think of what sometimes happens when one of my favourite artists releases a difficult and challenging album. Sometimes it's immediately hard to get into, but with repeated listens I'll 'get it' and the album may eventually become a favourite. If I could listen to, say, this album over and over then perhaps I'd 'get it' and like it as much as others on this thread do. But, perhaps because Liam is the son of one my favourite artists not the artist himself, I don't put in the effort/investment. And perhaps if this exact same album had been released by Neil I would have put the effort in and learned to love it.

    However, I think that while this thread and similar threads are very good at getting me to appreciate albums that perhaps I haven't listened to a lot, it's not helping me appreciate Liam's music more. There are occasional songs that just click for me. But, for a lot of them, no. Listening to music like this by listening to a song once or twice not in the context of a full album listen doesn't really work for me. And, I'm going in the other direction and am now not looking forward to Lightsleeper.

    I could make an EP playlist from the album that I find more accessible, and play that a bit. Perhaps if I did, and then moved up to the album as a whole then I might 'get it' more. But, there's a lot of music to listen to.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
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  10. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Very true. That kind of texture occurs so often here that it's easy to take it for granted. But vocal duos that good are one in a million.
     
  11. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    This is true. I have structured my listening to make myself listen for a couple of weeks before we start an album so I'm well familiar with it. Nearly always I start off hating it and then end up loving at least most of it (I hated Dizzy Heights until two days before we started discussing it when suddenly (most of) it clicked resoundingly. The same with this one, I found it inpenetrable until the day before.
     
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  12. brownie61

    brownie61 Forum Resident

    The Nihilist

    This is by far my favorite Liam album (aside from Lightsleeper, which I don’t categorize as a “Liam album”), and the only one up to this point I feel is listenable in its entirety. When played through in its entirety, it is interesting and compelling. I’ll play it on repeat several times in a row and it’s good company. I think it’s much greater than the sum of its parts, and of all the albums I like that I’ve dissected in this thread, for some reason The Nihilist is the least able to stand up to that kind of scrutiny. For me, it works tremendously well if I don’t dissect it and just let it wash over me.

    4/5
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
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  13. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    I was somewhat surprised at how much I was enjoying the first half or so of The Nihilist, thinking I might look into buying a physical copy if they are easily available. I found my attention drifting off a bit during much of the second half, though. That isn't to say I didn't find the tracks mostly enjoyable individually, but they kind of blended together a bit much for an engaging album flow (which I'm also finding to be somewhat the case, if to a lesser extent, with the second half of the new CH album). The only track I really dislike is "Wild Animal," which to me felt both musically and lyrically like a generic and mildly abrasive pop-punk track along the lines of Betchadupa (which is just not my cup of tea).

    Not quite sure what I think of "Wrestle With Dad." It's almost impossible to judge it independently of its title, which is interestingly provocative (and, as with Warhol, I simply don't buy Liam's assertion that it is only to be taken literally, particularly given the familial anxieties he explored in two other videos for the album). Just as an instrumental (which it practically is, given how hard much of the lyrics are to make out), I agree with several others that it is kind of interesting, but goes on too long. But the title (and, of course, the video) gives it a kind of conceptual weight that makes it more fitting than it otherwise would be as an album closer.

    I've listened to sections of the album in sequence while drifting off to sleep, but I've never quite heard the whole thing in sequence from beginning to end. Like Lance, I think it could have been improved with some trimming and possible re-sequencing. But I still enjoyed it more than I'll Be Lightning or any other album by Liam (with the possible exception of Lightsleeper, which I thought was fantastic when it came out, but haven't gotten around to playing again since the pandemic began). It's very hard to rate--I'm thinking almost, but not quite, a four: 3.9/5
     
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  14. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Well, maybe more relevant is the idea (he mentioned) that it’s not about his father so much as perceptions amongst other people (his father's fans, mainly, I guess.)

    You can take literally any other Millennial musician and he will NOT be compared with Neil Finn; yet it happens to Liam constantly (and somewhat naturally) and he mentioned how annoying it is in interviews around this time.

    I also believe that the Finns (all of them) very pointedly and consciously do not write songs about each other. So I believe him when he says that it doesn’t reveal anything about their relationship. Anyway, the lyrics are impossible for me to understand, but I'd bet if we could decipher them, nothing much would be revealed.

    Of course feelings of competition might be somewhat universal or at least commonplace. But it's also clear that they make music together a lot -- and I bet that they bond on some deep level that transcends all that. I think that when musicians jam with each other they have sort of dialogues with each other through music and that gives them an intimate, if inarticulate, knowledge of each other.

    I don’t know if the videos are quite representing the music; and I also don’t know if Liam is being consciously Freudian so much as being weird and creepy for humor’s sake (snd the symbology just happens to run along Freudian lines. I’m not an expert on these things as you are but I take your word on the Freudian symbols.)

    The video of them wrestling is clearly Freudian though and even Liam is probably aware of that.

    But it’s weirdness for me comes not so much from seeing a half-naked father and son wrestling as just the fact that they are just humorously not the finest specimens of male beauty at all: Neil scrawny and saggy and Liam stocky and somewhat muscular but also definitely a little flabby.

    I remember actually thinking, “wow they are really comfortable in their own bodies with all their flaws” and wishing that I could say the same.

    It’s just unusual to see that on your screen. Even in the current body-positive culture it rarely seems to extend to men.

    I really wish the video was available.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
  15. dongelen

    dongelen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Netherlands
    Wrestle with my dad is a track that I've listened so much that I know and enjoy everything off. 5/5

    The Nihilist is my favourite Liam album, and I think that it is one of the best albums ever. So 5/5.
    There is no favourite, each track is better than the track before. Even when I put the album on repeat :)
    I'm eagerly awaiting new material. I was a bit disappointed that he decided to become a member of Crowded House. As much as I like Neils music, Liams albums are the ones that I look most forward to.
     
  16. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Pity you weren't around for some earlier Liam stuff, @dongelen. It's cool to see an unabashed Liam fan here.
     
  17. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Liam’s first video inside of his rehearsing/writing is up.

    https://m.twitch.tv/videos/1055507204


    It’s mostly him just looping guitars and playing songs and occasionally singing and he says that he will go through them later and hopefully develop them into real songs. It’s kind of fun to watch for awhile or maybe have playing in the background.
     
  18. KangaMom

    KangaMom Queen of the Quokkas

    The Nihilist - I'm not going to have anything profound to say about this album. Reading through the comments I see that @HitAndRun has almost perfectly summarized my view (thanks!). I said right at the beginning of this album discussion that this was all going to be first listens for me. This was also true for FOMO, Dizzy Heights, PJC. These albums are all different from each other so the only thing I can work from is my reaction to them as first takes.

    I think that The Nihilist may be worth me taking another shot at listening to as an album, not as the individual songs. I've heard just enough from each song to give the benefit of the doubt which I don't mean as a negative comment. I'm not familiar with Liam's catalog, although I've heard the evolution of his music via this thread, and find it interesting (although not always enjoyable). And in this case, I think it's an album - so don't try and listen to the songs individually - and it's going to take a few listens to reveal it's charm. I don't mean that as a knock - it took me 5 listens to like the new CH album and that's way more accessible than this album. It is more that I think it may be worth the effort.

    Just for the record, I did purchase FOMO and PJC after the first take listens. I heard enough individually from the songs to want to have the albums - it's a case of it had enough individual songs to make the album. I haven't bought Dizzy Heights yet. At the time we discussed it here, I figured that the iTunes version was enough, but now I'm rethinking that and seriously considering purchasing that album as well. My point is, that sometimes an album needs some "marination" time not necessarily active listening. In the case of The Nihilist my sense is that I may be shortchanging the album by only listening to the individual songs in isolation - so I won't rate it as that would be pretty unfair.
     
  19. BeSteVenn

    BeSteVenn FOMO Resident

    I first picked up The Nihilist from the free bin at a record store I used to go to. It was a promo copy, but because of my experience with Betchadupa I never got around to listening to it. As this thread approached FOMO and The Nihilist, I decided to buy new copies because there was enough that I really liked as we went through I'll Be Lightning (which I had also originally unfairly shortchanged) to justify getting them both, and I'm glad I did. Of those post-Betchadupa albums, I probably like The Nihilist the Nihi-least, but there is still much to like here. When it first arrived, I listened to it straight through twice in a row while I worked, but didn't listen closely. I had high expectations for the individual songs, but as with many long-form musical pieces, it works best to listen to it as a whole (as others have also said) and will probably do that from time to time, but will add those songs that stand nicely on their own to a Best Of Liam playlist.

    I don't recall how I voted on the other Liam albums, but as a whole this one sits comfortably for me at 3.7/5, a shorter album would certainly have gone higher.
     
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  20. jimbutsu

    jimbutsu WATCH YÖUR STEPPE

    ...but my favorite track on the album is "Wrestling With Dad Jokes."
     
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  21. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Tim Finn and Phil Manzanera's EP is OUT on streaming services! I goes for 69 Czech Crowns on iTunes. Which is, like, $3.20. I think.

    :goodie: What a great month.


    Here it is on Spotify!

    Caught by the Heart
     
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  22. drewrclv9

    drewrclv9 Forum Resident

    I was just thinking the other day how in just the month of June, we're getting music involving Neil, Liam, Elroy, Tim, and Elliot Finn. In a two week span, no less. There's still just shy of two weeks left for Harper to put out a new song and complete what would be a star-aligning event. :D
     
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  23. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    He released a single six weeks ago so it should be time to release one of a half dozen remixes.
     
  24. therunner

    therunner Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    I'm going to break the general consensus and say that I don't find it better to listen to The Nihilist as a whole album greater than the sum of its parts, I much prefer to get rid of the songs I don't like and just cherry pick the more melodic ones that suit my tastes more. Mainly because there are so many I don't like that I would get cumulatively irritated by them, and that would spoil my mood and therefore my enjoyment of the songs I do really like.

    Overall I rate Liam's solo albums on a descending curve, with the melodic folk/pop of I'll Be Lightning by far my favourite, FOMO I can take or leave, but The Nihilist is not an album I would ever choose to play in its entirety.

    2/5
     
  25. HitAndRun

    HitAndRun Forum Resident

    I'm listening to it now. The songs are good and Tim's making good use of his now limited vocal range on most songs. I presume the female voice is Elliot.

    Yes, I know this EP will appear in the thread at some point.
     
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