Stranger than Fiction, Larger Than Life: the Finn Brothers song-by-song discussion thread

Can I just say how much I appreciate this take on "Big Canoe"? I personally can't get over the production hurdle even if intellectually I know there are very good songs on this album - so it's nice to read the take of someone who isn't bound by that barrier.

I also get glimpses of how enjoyable this album can be as a pop confection - it's why I would want a production adjustment so I could enjoy that aspect. (Also, thanks for not leaving me on the island of liking Spiritual Hunger by myself!)

EDIT: Ditto this comment for @BeSteVenn. I like to read comments from people who are sitting in the (kinda) opposite camp from me.

 

My apologies Lance! I was basing my assessment on the low average score for this song....I hadn't actually gone back to read the actual discussion...so it was an assumption based on incomplete data (that's some sloppy science right there )

 

I'm also in the liking Spiritual Hunger camp. As has kind of been mentioned, it started as the late Enz demo Mr Catalyst. Think the nutty video earns it bonus points. Phil's gonzo guitar dance gets 5* from me.

 

Many thanks @ToneM!

I guess I should withdraw my statement of being among the few that liked Spiritual Hunger. That appears to not be correct at all!

 

Haha, no problem. I think you are right that the ambition of this album: the lyrics, the super overcooked arrangements the wide array of styles that somehow tries (and actually succeeds) at sonic cohesion….It’s just too much. I have to say I really enjoy the positive comments of BeStevenn and Drew. For one thing when we were going over this the first time, I felt quite alone (or almost) on some of these songs so it’s nice to see that validated by some of you. But it’s also always enjoyable to read developed thoughts that are positive and see things differently.

It is weird but I think the only Finn/Launay project I like is Liam’s Aiming For Your Head.

In terms of the sound which is dated, I wonder if some of us who were from the eighties might have a sort of visceral reaction to the sound that might have nothing to do with the actual music and might have more to do with fashions and trends at the time that we bought into when we were younger. I think younger people accept these textures far more than we do: and look At Harper’s music. It really has way more in common with eighties pop than anything else: for him that decade is the equivalent of what the sixties are for me.

I think the 90s were all about “authenticity” which translated into less reverb and digital gloss and I’m very much a 90s type of guy: that was when I was young, good looking, had questionable hygiene and was totally miserable.
And maybe it’s hard for me to really hear 80s music without cultural interference.

 

That video is hilariously nuts.

I like the monstrous Ferris Wheel that is chasing Tim and then how Phil Judd just bursts through a window out of nowhere to rock out on the guitar. And the guy with the wings…what the hell is going on with that whole video?

 

The whole Launay thing is weird to me. I've liked plenty of his production (notably Midnight Oil) but Big Canoe and Code Blue (Icehouse) were 2 production jobs he did where it just misfired (in my opinion). In Big Canoe's case, it sounds like the large cast of session players didn't quite gel to give a cohesive picture and I guess it was all fairly high quality and perhaps it was hard for Nick/Tim to edit down. On the Icehouse album (and not to cross threads overtly) the problem seemed to reside with, again, lots of session players providing good stuff but it lacks a cohesive atmosphere which downgrades what is a very good album. This combined with an artist who probably had pretty firm ideas on what it should sound like resulted (or at least I speculate) on an album that didn't really satisfy anyone, least of all the commercial prospects.

I can only speak for myself (obvs) but I think that's true. My memory of being disappointed with Big Canoe and Conflicting Emotions was partly that the sound (at the time) didn't appeal to me - it wasn't the style I liked at the time. Possibly they were on trend, but I was nothing if not willing to be contrary as a teenager. As a consequence I can't look at it objectively. That residual memory/prejudice is there (for better or worse - for Escapade it was a happy memory). I find with 80s and even early 90s music I'm much more willing to be an objective listener if I'm not very familiar with an album. I don't bring the baggage, so to speak, and so then I'm listening to it as if it were new music (even if it is decades old).

I've expressed to Drew in another thread that I wish I could borrow his ears for a few minutes - to not know a certain song or sound - and hear it with fresh intent.

 

I've been trying to write about Big Canoe, but couldn't quite bring myself to. The reason why is quite a long, personal and rambling account, so feel free to skip.

Growing up, there was always music playing in the house. I think my musical tastes were largely formed by osmosis, breathing in my Dad's love of The Beatles, Buddy Holly, The Kinks, 10CC and ELO, to name a few. When I was old enough to buy my own music in my early teens, I was surprised (and slightly horrified) to find Dad frequently borrowing my records. It made it hard to musically rebel when our tastes were so similar.

I loved Don't Dream It's Over when it came out, but dismissed it as a one-(almost) hit wonder. I didn't hear from Crowded House again until Chocolate Cake was playing on the radio. I liked it enough to buy the 7", which Dad pretty much wore grooves in. Post Woodface we were both hooked, and kept a sharp eye out for their back catalogue in those pre internet days.

One record shop trip saw Dad return with an intriguing cassette simply entitled 'Tim Finn'. Although we both eagerly devoured pretty much any CH or Enz album we could lay our hands on, Dad developed a particular zeal for Tim's solo records. He especially loved the bombastic Big Canoe and would play it incessantly, to the point of great annoyance.

Although we both kicked ourselves for narrowly missing the Woodface tour, we were lucky enough to see Neil and Tim play live a few times over the years, both solo and together. By the time we caught the Intriguer tour, followed by a Pajama Club gig, it was clear there was something amiss with Dad's health. Eventually he was diagnosed with Parkinson's.

Even though this debilitated him greatly, music remained his passion and gave him comfort in his last years. He was still enthusiastically seeking out music and new bands. Although he wasn't impressed with Neil's 2010's output, one of the last albums he bought was Out Of Silence. A year later, he lost his long battle with the disease.

I inherited Dad's sizable Finn CD collection, which was a catalyst for me to rediscover my interest in their music (and inadvertently led me to this forum). Whenever I listen to the Finn brothers, it reminds me of Dad, and all the times we spent together enjoying and discussing their music. That's what music can do. However, the one thing I still can't bring myself to play is Big Canoe. That will always remain his record.

 

@ToneM thank you for sharing such an intensely personal connection to "Big Canoe". And I'm extremely sorry to read about your loss.

 

OK, I've now had a chance to watch this video (first time ever!). That's a complete bonkers video - who the heck storyboarded that? Although really, kind of emblematic of the album. There's a lot of stuff going on in this video...and clearly a lot of money was put into it... but there's almost too much to look at it.
It was good to see Phil and Tim in the same song. But wow is that video a trip...@ToneM you are right that it's almost worth bonus points.

 

OK, I just saw the video for "Carve you in Marble" for the first time. That is pretty spectacular but kind of creepy at the same time...

 

Thanks for this very nice post. You were lucky to have a Dad to share music with, I think and lucky that the music will always keep the memory alive.

 

I think that thing about the eighties being to Harper what the sixties are to you is a fascinating thing. I remember when John Lennon was murdered, there was suddenly wall-to-wall Beatles on the radio with re-releases of singles and all the Beatles films were played on the TV. These films seemed like they took place forever ago, but were in the region of sixteen years previous, which now is the blink of an eye, but of course for a sixteen year old was (and I hate using this word) literally a lifetime ago. The idea that, say, England winning back The Ashes in 2005 can be viewed in the same was I viewed A Hard Day's Night as ancient history, to use an early '90s Manc phrase, does my shed in.

I remember Aimee Mann's Whatever coming out and being overjoyed that finally there was something new from her after all that time, but just hating the way modern production was starting to take away that glorious sheen that had started around about the time of Breakfast in America. I hate myself for being stuck in this mindset of only being able to enjoy reverby, spacious sounding music (*) and although it delights me that albums like Wolf Alice and Snowgoose are bringing back that sort of production to an extent, I deprive myself of pleasure because of this inability to stomach closed in, dry music and the even more modern type of effects such as auto-tune and massive compression.

* I would say though, that I don't mean the most extreme excess of this such as Echo and The Bunnymen, The Chameleons etc or the over produced sound of bands like Duran Duran, but that style where the cardboard box drums of the 70s had gone and there was still enough of an edge to the music that had room to breathe - big without being bombastic. Perfection was albums like Love Over Gold, Document, Rattlesnakes and for this thread as we nosed into the 90s, Woodface. I really envy those of you who hear past all this kind of stuff (or indeed enjoy it).

 

This morning I woke up with "Carve You in Marble" running through my brain* and it made me wonder whether perhaps I had been a bit stingy with my scoring on this album. I see I've given it a 3.6/5 which I think is about right...but I guess listening to selected songs a few more times has really made me like this album more than I did originally a week ago (so good thing that we circled back on this album!)

I think I'm going to put Big Canoe (the album) into my iTunes and excise the songs I don't like out of the album. It would be larger than an EP but only just.

*I guess this might be a cautionary tale to not watch music videos before bedtime...much like not drinking coffee before bedtime, although I do that as well on occasion

 

I've been thinking about how many songs I find running through my head when I wake up that are associated with threads on this forum. Some being songs I had never heard before listening to them for a thread. It show: the forum works.

Right now I have Searching the Streets in there.

 

Have you guys heard the Marble Mix of Carve You In Marble? It's the same only without the piano intro and without the bass and drums. Just voice, synth and a little guitar, that sounds like it might be synth, too for all I know. It's actually really cool.

 

100% it works. (well in the sense that there is a purpose). I've been very pleased to be introduced (and re-introduced) to various songs courtesy of the threads.

It's almost Pavlovian, the response. As I'm reading your comment, suddenly "Searching the Streets" started playing in my head...I don't know how those of you who are in lots of threads manage this type of (head) traffic

 

No, I haven't but while I was looking on YouTube last night I may have seen it in the sidebar of recommendations...I will take another look later this evening.

 

Shhh ... don't tell google or Amazon.

 

Too late! They already know...

Based on music I've looked at or purchased (and I don't even purchase from Amazon regularly)...they suggest music to me. The algorithms are already suggesting that I listen to XTC...(fortunately, many others in the thread have also suggested this and I trust them more than the algorithms)

Google, in particular, is all pervasive...but wickedly convenient for many things.
(Yes, I've essentially sold my commercial soul for convenience...not a comfortable thought really.)

 

The algorithms show great wisdom at times...

 

In much the same way that all the participants in this (and my other threads) are people of impeccable taste...

 

BIG CANOE

I joined this forum thread during the latter parts of the original song-by-song discussions of this album, but as I had by then missed the chance to comment on most of the songs I'd like to write a few words now.
To me, "Big Canoe" is a special album that deserves a lot more love than it has generally received since it release. I bought it soon after its release, in May 1986 and while it was immediately clear that it didn't sound like Split Enz, I also thought that very fact was part of the appeal. One thing that I loved (love) about Split Enz was how they seldom repeated themselves, each album was its own musical universe. And in that respect, "Big Canoe" continues that spirit, it doesn't sound like any Finn album before it and it doesn't sound like any of the Tim albums that followed after it either.
There are several aspects about this album that I find intriguing, fascinating and rewarding. One aspect is that there are so many styles on it, from dance-oriented pop with a R&B flavour, reflective ballads, mid-tempo guitar-based pop, epic songs and rockier songs. It's very divergent, yet I find that divergence also being strangely cohesive.
Much has been written about Jeremy Brock's lyrics, but I like that they are like short stories and that they give the album a theatrical or cinematic feel, each song is like a mini-movie.
I also like how ambitious Tim was with this record and that he wasn't afraid to take musical risks. Having achieved a lot of success in Europe with "Escapade", it might have been tempting to make Escapade 2, but he didn't. It is obvious he put a lot of work into the arrangements and instrumentation and while I agree that some songs could have benefitted from a "less is more" approach, I admire that at least he didn't play it safe.
And, throughout the album, Tim's singing is just exquisite, top notch in every way.

Spiritual Hunger
A fairly long instrumental intro was an unexpected way to start his first post-Enz album. This gives the song a very cinematic atmosphere, when I hear this it gives me images of a wide-screen movie, showing a vast landscape before zooming in on the main character. The song then shifts to being a mid-80s dance pop track, though with lyrics about spiritual hunger rather than a more conventional lyric about romantic love. I think the blend of the instrumental intro with the main song plus the lyrics makes the track very good.

Don't Bury My Heart
I like how the fade-out of "Spiritual Hunger" evolves into the intro of this song. Tim's singing makes the song rise above itself, giving it character. The instrumentation adds to that, but I think the chorus is slightly underwhelming. Lyrically there is an uneasy mood, the narrator comes across as a bit of a stalker but a rather harmless one, a person who is aware that any love relationship they had is over and will not bother or harass the "you" person.

Timmy
Possibly the weakest song on the album. I think Tim was aiming for a summer-ish club feel in this song, but the groove sounds very forced and stiff and very much played by session musicians rather than a band.

So Deep
I find this song very, very catchy and the groove sounds more natural. The backing vocals enhance the song quite a bit. However, the lyrics just sound like abstract images put together and that lessens the song for me.

No Thunder, No Fire, No Rain
A marvellous piece of music, very cinematic with beautiful strings and instrumentation. Lyrically, it's amazing how Jeremy Brock managed to write about the Bhopal disaster in 1984 in such a human and empathic way within a song.
As great as this song is, I still find it baffling that Virgin chose this as the first single, it's not a very commercial or radio-friendly song at all in my opinion.

Carve You In Marble
I first heard the album on vinyl and having "No Thunder, No Fire, No Rain" as the last song on side A and this one as the first one on side B was excellent sequencing in my opinion. The heavy emotions of "No Thunder, No Fire, No Rain" sink in as the listener switch sides on the record and then hears the long melancholy piano intro of "Carve You In Marble". Very haunting. It also means both sides start with about equally long instrumental intros. The main song is very beautiful and romantic though it also has a sense of sadness. I really like the instrumental outro, the song coming full circle. An incredible track.

Water Into Wine
I quite like this one, taking the album from the introspection of the previous track to the action-packed energy of this one and the blend of the semi-spoken verses and shouty Tim in the choruses. Not a masterpiece, but certainly a solid album track.

Hyacinth
A song I could listen to every day and I would never tire of it. This should have been the first single. Very strong melody, incredible singing by Tim, excellent guitar and harp parts and with romantic but also very vulnerable lyrics. Everything about this song is just incredible!

Big Canoe
Another top notch song and again very wide-screen cinematic. Every time I hear this song I get vivid images of the early Maoris crossing the ocean on a gloriously sunny day, arriving to New Zealand for the first time. Tim's singing, the backing vocalists and all the musicians really get the best out of this astounding track.

Are We One Or Are We Two
A very good album closer. Musically this electric guitar-based song is a long way away from how the album began, but the 10 track LP has a flow that makes the many shifts in styles seem natural. I like how the track ends with drummer Geoff Dugmore just dropping his drum sticks.

I think I gave the album 4/5 back in 2019. Now, in late October 2021, I'd like to upgrade that to 4,44/5.

 

Our new and old votes for Big Canoe:

1-0
2-1
3-3
4-3
5-1
Average: 3.5675

 

Albums ranked.

Big Canoe adjusted again The rating score changed from the original votes 3.16 to 3.5675. The ranking changed from #45 to #37.

Irregularities may exist in the early Betchadupa's albums: Aiming For Your Head, might be an accurate score, but on the earlier albums and EPs, some refrained from voting, thus skewing the scores slightly.

I may give some time for whole album discussions of the early stuff at least, later on in the year.

Green: abums with Tim and Neil
Orange: Neil Finn
Blue: Tim Finn
Purple: Tim Finn/Phil Judd albums
Magenta: Liam Finn albums
Grey: Neil Finn and sons albums
Light blue: elroy
YELLOW!!!! HARPER FINN (RUNNING OUT OF COLORS)

1. Everyone Is Here 4.975
2. Woodface 4.8033
3. Together Alone 4.7333
4. Time And Tide 4.7
5. Temple of Low Men 4.5577
6. Dizrhythmia 4.5333
7. True Colours 4.5125
8. Frenzy 4.4944
9. Before and After 4.4667
10. The Rootin' Tootin' Luton Tapes 4.42
11. Mental Notes 4.3
12. Caught By The Heart 42571
13. Second Thoughts 4.2438
14. Crowded House 4.2142
15. Imaginary Kingdom 4.2042
16. Try Whistling This 4.2
17. The Conversation 4.1727
18. Time On Earth 4.13
19. Say It Is So 4.055
20. I'll Be Lightning 3.9889
21. FOMO 3.9625
22. Tim Finn 3.9429
23. One Nil 3.9
24. The Fiery Maze 3.9
25. Finn 3.889
26. Beginning of the Enz 3.8667
27. Out of Silence 3.85
28. The View Is Worth the Climb 3.84
29. Waiata/Corroboree
30. Feeding the Gods 3.833
31. COLLECTED WORKS OF HARPER FINN 3.8101
32. The Nihilist 3.7778
33. See Ya Round 3.7
34. Intriguer 3.6615
35. Conflicting Emotions 3.62
    
36. Suzanne Bartsch On Top soundtrack 3.6 (only two votes)
37. Big Canoe 3.5675
38. The 3d EP 3.5667
39. Aiming For Your Head 3.5333
40. Dreamers Are Waiting 3.5269
41. Escapade 3.495
42. The Alphabetchadupa 3.28
43. Lightsleeper 3.2385
44. Pablo Vazquez 3.1825
45. Rain 3.083 (song average)
46. Dizzy Heights 3
47. Altitude 2.9714
48. Pajama Club 2.89722
49. Steel City 2.82
50. Betchadupa 2.8
51. Elroy 2.644