Stranger than Fiction, Larger Than Life: the Finn Brothers song-by-song discussion thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Lance LaSalle, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. KangaMom

    KangaMom Queen of the Quokkas

    @Paul H I agree that it's hard to figure out where this fits in the pantheon of Finn albums. There's not much of a correspondence to previous work - therefore any folks looking at the album ratings would do well to read the discussion of the albums before committing to them. It's obvious that this music isn't easy to categorize and I think each person will approach it differently. Also, do I think these albums (which I scored at 4.5) are equivalent to a Crowded House 4.5...nope. They can only be measured against the experience of its own catalog. So, at least for me, there are multiple grading curves occurring here (Neil curve, Tim curve, Liam curve, Enz curve...)

    I think it's ok for negative opinions so long as they have something to contribute (it clearly didn't hold @drewrclv9 back on the last few songs :)). And as always, I appreciate your well thought out comments.

    EDIT: Heck, my 4.5s aren't even for the same reasons on these albums. They fit together but they are not really alike...
     
  2. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    The Ghost Of Santiago is not so much a sequel to Caught By The Heart as it is its sibling: conceived in the same sessions, recorded in largely the same way with mostly the same gaggle of musicians and always intended to come out together.

    So it's hard for me to see them separately. It's the Wasp Star to CBTH's Apple Venus. The Lucky Town to CBTH's Human Touch. The Use Your Illusion II to CBTH's Use Your Illusion I. You get the picture.

    Like that album, lyrically, this is also an album that is self-consciously that of an older man ruminating on the things older men ruminate on: lost love, lost time, impending death and the deaths of others, the neverending grind of war, and the sparkling memories of youth.

    It is different though: less commercial, as @KangaMom says; more low-key, and, dare I say it, a bit more somber; sadder.

    At the same time, though there's also more of the Latin influence that initial promo interviews and the like led me to believe the albums would be chock full of. Phil's dialed back his sumptious electric playing in favor of a Cuban-ish acoustic guitar -- and there are overt elements of Latin jazz, bossanova, and even, if such a genre exists, Latin disco in this: truly a meeting of worlds.

    It's well sequenced and I think there is a narrative told, at least in terms of mood and the themes of this record, while similar seem more focused on love lost and the ravages of time. There's more pain here, but it's really just exploring the same ground as the earlier album.

    I also think it's stronger than its parts, and when I was playing it earlier in the car, I kept thinking to myself, "I Want to hear this again."

    I will say that it does peter out in the end: "Falling Asleep" is all-too-obviously an outtake from an earlier Tim era -- and the last song functions only as an album capper.

    And even when listened to all together the weakness of the last two tracks stands out: they are not bad enough to skip, to be sure, but they are less strong statements.

    I gave the last album a 4.5/5, and I think this is largely just as good but I think there was only one song on that that I didn't feel quite made it -- "Galleon Of Stars"-- there are two, or two and a half here, so I must rate it lower.

    But I am glad we got it. Imagine having at least 7 songs this good and letting them languish! Overall there is a gestalt to the album that keeps it enjoyable, even though the weak bits so I'll give it a 4.2/5.

    I don't grade on a curve, either. ! ;-)

    What's next for Tim? We know that he's got an upcoming album with Andy White (T&A, or perhaps AWFT!!!! (pronounced OFFED!), they will call it) and Neil and he have apparently both expressed interest in recording a new album for the first time in nearly 20 years (the other project that they wrote in the mid '10s having been pillaged by their various other projects by now and basically dead.)

    I don't think that we will see a true Tim solo album, perhaps not ever again. I recall that earlier in the year he mentioned that his main thing was still writing musicals, and then doing these projects with collaborators he's worked with before. I don't think he's all that interested in promoting the albums: these two albums came out on Phil Manzera's label, not Tim's; and Phil seems to have made the website, etc.

    I guess that it will be a while before the Finn/Manz well is full again, and if we do see a Forenzics 2, I'm not sure if they should "press their luck" beyond that any time soon.

    What I'd dearly like to see is a album that collated the best of his musical songs -- not necessarily with Tim singing them, as at this point I imagine that he is writing songs he literally can't sing -- but perhaps done with his blessing and approval and/or production. Just simple recordings, nothing special. Make it happen O great pineapple.

    I don't need to hear all of them, because some musical songs only work in context, to serve a narrative end, and we know that he's already plundered four or more songs from his musicals for hte releases for the last year. If he continues to do that, fine by me. His records and voice, ragged, worn, even painful as it sounds,has been sorely missed in my world.


     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2022
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  3. HitAndRun

    HitAndRun Forum Resident

    The Ghost of Santiago

    I'm having difficulty rating this album. At present I think my ears are rating this album as being a bit less than the sum of its parts.

    The music is great, all of: arrangement, production, and Phil's tasteful guitar playing. The guest artists add a lot whether it's ambient loops

    The songs are generally good. But, there is something that's not quite holding together for me. I think that no matter how much I'm used to it by now, I think that these songs deserve something a bit better than Tim's current voice. While it works well for some isolated songs, over a whole album it just sounds a little bit ... wrong.

    I terms of where this album fits into the Finn universe, I think it fits better in with Phil Manzanera albums, a number of which of course had Tim on them. Phil has worked with some really great vocalists who sound very good on his material, including peak vocal Tim Finn and 'Neal'. Given that this is a Finn thread, it may be sacrilege to say so, but I get the feeling that these songs deserve a bit better than what Tim currently provides. Listening to the whole album makes Tim's voice stand out even more to me than listening to the songs one by one.

    It's not that I don't like the album - I think it's comparable to Caught byt the Heart but I do prefer that album a bit. It's just that I think that the album would be significantly improved if Tim could sing the songs more appropriately. The songs on Say It Is So for example suited Tim's voice. I know that others think differently, and that's fine. But, I'm left a bit disappointed. I suspect that repeated listenings will get me more used to the vocal style. But, at present, it is making a difference for me.

    I was wondering about skipping a numerical vote, but I think I will. A bit of a mixture, and 3.6/5 overall.

    PS: I don't mind if we don't get another pure Tim solo album ever again provided that there are all these collaborations.
     
  4. Paul H

    Paul H The fool on the hill

    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    I think a lot of the reason these songs aren't gelling is Tim's voice. Often, a song will start very promisingly and then my enjoyment ends the minute Tim's voice appears. Of course, there's much artistic merit in older, gruffer, worn voices and, of course, many genuinely enjoy hearing them. I'm afraid, I appear not to be one of those, and I strongly suspect that HitAndRun is right: with a different vocalist, these albums might well be far more enjoyable. That said, Latin, jazz, bossanova etc aren't really my cup of tea so there's clearly a limit to how much I'm likely to enjoy these albums irrespective of who's singing. I'd be really intrigued to hear instrumental versions of these songs though.
     
  5. drewrclv9

    drewrclv9 Forum Resident

    The Ghost of Santiago is certainly a mixed bag for me. It starts off with a couple of genuinely fantastic songs, and I would've loved to have had that quality persist, but alas, it didn't. Seriously, "Space Cannibal" and "Our Love" are amongst the best things Tim has done in the last 20 years in my opinion. I, of course, am one to prefer his 80's/90's output more than his 00's/10's stuff. "Costeno", "Rosemullion Head" and "Mal Sueno" are the other highlights for me. Tim sounds mostly good, though sometimes his Leonard Cohen style vocal is tough to listen to. Phil does a good job with his guitar work.

    It's certainly an album of a certain style, and I get that, I just wish the quality of the first two tracks had continued. Admittedly, those two tracks sound much more like Tim solo than a Latin-themed album with Phil Manzanera. But it's good Tim "solo". I wish I liked the album more than I did, but I honestly don't hate it either. There are enough tracks that keep my interest scattered throughout, that I never get to the point of wanting to stop listening halfway through the album. Those last two tracks and 'Llano", though, I'll be happy to never have to listen to those again. Overall, solid album, but not exactly stellar.

    3/5
     
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  6. BeSteVenn

    BeSteVenn FOMO Resident

    The Ghost of Santiago didn't immediately impress me the way that Caught By The Heart did, and so far there isn't a standout track like Shades and Echoes has ("Premiere Fois"), but that doesn't mean that it won't continue to be an enjoyable listen, and certainly there is more lurking beneath the surface on The Ghost of Santiago to appeal to me as I continue to listen to it. Tim's nearly 70 year-old voice really fits the material. The songs on The Ghost of Santiago (just like Caught By The Heart) work best for me when listened to as a whole. Once again Tim and Phil have created an album that plays like a song cycle. It's art. I'm glad that their inspiration is still there. I hope the remaining three or so Tim Finn-Phil Manzanera songs will be shared with us.

    At the risk of sounding like an award acceptance speech, I would also like to thank each of the folks who have discussed and rated each song, their perspectives and opinions have had an influence on my thoughts on The Ghost of Santiago. Even when we disagree, they've given me something to think about when I thought my mind was made up. Upon further listening, I underrated just about every song. Especially of note is others' opinion of "Llanto", I rated it at 2.5/5, now it's among my favorite songs on the record, solidly in the 4s.

    4.5/5
     
  7. KangaMom

    KangaMom Queen of the Quokkas

    I guess Rosemullion Head is the only one where you will get that approach since it started as an instrumental...
     
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  8. KangaMom

    KangaMom Queen of the Quokkas

    100% agree with this. I feel like he is in a golden age of collaboration and the quality is really stellar...
     
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  9. KangaMom

    KangaMom Queen of the Quokkas

    @Lance LaSalle you are obviously better at maintaining consistency with your scoring. I can barely remember what I scored the songs at the start of the week...:)

    And I agree that I'd love to have a compilation of Tim's musical songs. Or just a cast recording. But mostly I'd love to have a box set of Tim stuff. We have a lot of access to Neil's solo stuff, but holy hell it's hard to find some of Tim's music. (Yes, still deeply regret not having The View is Worth the Climb). No wonder my sister bought me a copy of the ALT reissue, she heard me complain about not collecting stuff while I was out visiting...
     
  10. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Oh, I don't know about that! I just don't worry about about being consistent!
     
  11. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Our vote for The Ghost of Santiago
    1-0
    2-1
    3-1
    4-3
    5-2

    Average: 3.6143
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
  12. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Albums ranked. The Ghost Of Santiago added. I also adjusted Caught by The Heart down to it's new position, #25, reflecting Paul's (eleven month late ;-) ) rating. It's rating is now 3.975

    I've also added Southern Cross, which had a collective rating of 2.7675 for the songs we discussed here....Underrated, I think....but so is Pajama Club , Lighsleeper, The Nihilist.... Altitude too...

    Meanwhile I think Pablo Vasquez is greatly overrated at 3.18!

    Green: abums with Tim and Neil
    Orange: Neil Finn
    Blue: Tim Finn
    Purple: Tim Finn/Phil Judd albums
    Magenta: Liam Finn albums
    Grey: Neil Finn and sons albums
    Light blue: elroy
    YELLOW!!!! HARPER FINN (RUNNING OUT OF COLORS)

    1. Woodface 4.7477
    2. Together Alone 4.7333
    3. Time And Tide 4.7
    4. Dizrhythmia 4.5333
    5. Shades And Echoes 4.53
    6. Everyone Is Here 4.5312
    7. True Colours 4.5125
    8. Frenzy 4.4944
    9. Before and After 4.4542
    10. Temple Of Low Men 4.4206
    11. The Rootin' Tootin' Luton Tapes 4.42
    12. Try Whistling This 4.3556
    13. Mental Notes 4.3
    14. Time On Earth 4.2764
    15. Second Thoughts 4.2438
    16. Afterglow 4.24
    17. The Conversation 4.1727
    18. Finn 4.1531
    19. Imaginary Kingdom 4.15
    20. Tim Finn 4.1385
    21. Crowded House 4.1154
    22. Newcomer 4.0298 (song average)
    23. One All 4.0005
    24. Say It Is So 3.9964
    25. Caught By the Heart 3.975
    26. FOMO 3.9625
    27. The Fiery Maze 3.9
    28. Beginning of the Enz 3.8667
    29. Out of Silence 3.85
    30. The View Is Worth the Climb 3.84
    31. I'll Be Lightning 3.8364
    32. Waiata/Corroboree3.8333
    33. Feeding the Gods 3.833
    34. One Nil 3.8
    35. The Nihilist 3.7778
    36. See Ya Round 3.7
    37. Intriguer 3.6615
    38. The 3d EP 3.64
    39. The Ghost of Santiago 3.6143
    40. Conflicting Emotions 3.62
    41. Aiming For Your Head 3.6143
    42. Suzanne Bartsch On Top soundtrack 3.6 (only two votes)
    43. Big Canoe 3.5675
    44. Dreamers Are Waiting 3.5269
    45. Escapade 3.495
    46. The Alphabetchadupa 3.28
    47. Altitude 3.3111
    48. Lightsleeper 3.2385
    49. Steel City 3.2
    50. Pablo Vazquez 3.1825
    51. The Les Patterson Long Player 3.1667
    52. Betchadupa 3.125
    53. Rain 3.083 (song average)
    54. Dizzy Heights 3
    55. Pajama Club 2.89722
    56. Southern Cross (8 song average) 2.7675
    57. Elroy 2.644
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
  13. KangaMom

    KangaMom Queen of the Quokkas

    It's really astonishing looking over that album list to see the productivity from this one family...

    Underrated....don't even talk to me about Escapade!! :D
     
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  14. brownie61

    brownie61 Forum Resident

    CH North American tour postponed because Elroy hurt his back. :(

    Neil Finn on behalf of Crowded House:

    Crowded House are disappointed to announce that we must postpone our upcoming North American tour. Our drummer Elroy is currently suffering a painful lower back injury and is receiving medical treatment for it. We are advised that there may be some risk in the recovery process for him to play shows at this time. The good health and future well-being of the band members has to be our priority and we have been assured that Elroy will fully recover in a matter of weeks given rest and rehabilitation.

    As I’m sure those who recently saw us play in Europe and U.K will attest, we have developed into a formidable live band over the past year and want to bring our fans in North America the show at full strength, which is what you deserve. We apologize to all those who bought tickets for this tour but we will be announcing a new schedule as soon as we can.
     
  15. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Well, crap. Horrid news.
     
  16. KangaMom

    KangaMom Queen of the Quokkas

    :cry: Hope Elroy is back on his feet soon. Lower back injuries are not to be messed with...
     
  17. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    This week, two Crowded House Fan club albums:
    • Ghost Cars
    • Acoustically Live
     
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  18. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    The first album, Ghost Cars, is an album culled from various performances ranging in time from 1991-1994 and featuring mostly the classic 4 piece line up of Neil, Mark, Nick & Paul, with help from Arlo and Jill (? was that the keyboardist on Together Alone tour?) and a couple of songs from the Tim era. It included some songs that had recently been released on the Afterglow album, as well as the then-rarity "Tail of a Comet."

    It was released in May 2000. the track listing is:

    1. Mean To Me (Neil Finn) --Portsmouth, England, March 7th, 1992
    2. Fame Is -(N. Finn) -- Columbus, Ohio, November 22, 1991
    3. I Feel Possessed (N. Finn) -- Manchester, England, February 27th, 1992
    4. How Will You Go (N. Finn, Tim Finn) -- Nottingham, England, March 3rd, 1992
    5. Tall Trees (N. Finn, T. Finn) --Portsmouth, England, March 7th, 1992
    6. Weather With You (N. Finn, T. Finn) --Portsmouth, England, March 7th, 1992
    7. Tail of a Comet (N. Finn) --Portsmouth, England, March 7th, 1992
    8. Love You 'Til the Day I Die (N. Finn) - Edinburgh, Scotland, June 19th, 1992
    9. Left Hand (N. Finn) -- Dublin, Ireland, November 2nd, 1991
    10. Better Be Home Soon/Franks Dark Past (N. Finn)--Portsmouth, England, March 7th, 1992
    11. World Where You Live (N. Finn) - Frankfurt am Main, Germany, October 27th, 1991
    12. Six Months In a Leaky Boat (T. Finn, Split Enz) -- Los Angeles, California, September 10th, 1991
    13. Something So Strong (N. Finn-Mitchell Froom)) -- Los Angeles, California, September 10th, 1991
    14. Hole in the River (N. Finn-Eddie Rayner)-- Cincinatti, Ohio, October 5th, 1991
    15. Recurring Dream (N. Finn, Craig Hooper, Nick Seymour, Paul Hester) --Orlando Florida, December 5th, 1991
    16. Catherine Wheels (N. Finn, T. Finn, Nick Seymour) -- London, England, May 31st, 1994
     
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  19. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    The second album is Acoustically Live.

    This album, releaesd in October 1999, was taken from three different live acoustic performances:
    • the first, a live acoustic rehearsal for MTV's Unplugged show with Tim playing with the band (and not yet a part of it. I believe Mitchell Froom plays keyboards on these songs as well.)
    • The second is taken from a live in studio performance recorded and broadcasted by 99X-FM radio station in Atlanta, Georgia on April 14th, 1994 (the day Paul left! -- he did not play on these songs)
    • The third was recorded in Botanic Park in Adelaide, Australia.
    The tracklist:
    Crowded House with Tim Finn & Mitchell Froom: (recorded March 28th, 1990, Los Angeles California
    1. Mean to Me ( Neil Finn)
    2. When You Come (N. Finn)
    3. Four Seasons in One Day (N. Finn, Tim Finn)
    4. Not Even Close (T. Finn)
    5. Show a Little Mercy (T. Finn)
    6. Throw Your Arms Around Me (Mark Seymour, Hunters And Collectors)
    7. Chocolate Cake (N. Finn, T. Finn)

      99X-FM, (recorded April 14th, 1994, Atlanta, Georgia)
    8. Locked Out (N. Finn)
    9. Private Universe (N. Finn)
    10. Pineapple Head (N. Finn)
    11. Distant Sun (N. Finn)
    12. Into Temptation (N. Finn)
    13. Black & White Boy (N. Finn)
    14. Catherine wheels (N. Finn, T. Finn, Nick Seymour

      Botanic Park, Adelaide, Australia (recorded March 15th, 1992
    15. Don't Dream It's Over (N. Finn)
    16. Fall At Your Feet (N. Finn)
    17. Italian Plastic (Paul Hester)
     
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  20. Paul H

    Paul H The fool on the hill

    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    Wow, Shades and Echoes really is over-rated. I'd better give it a score :D
     
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  21. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    No way! Id put it at #2, personally.
     
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  22. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    I listened to Acoustically Live, and it was a pretty good overview of the band, though the middle section seemed sadder than usual, probably becaise of Paul having already announced hos departure… Of course it could be me that felt sad and I’m projecting it onto the music… But there it is. I really enjoy the songs with Tim singing, either lead or in harmony: those two just sounded so great together.

    The last three are competent and good.

    5/5 and one of the jewels in the crown of the fanclub releases….yet not the best.

    I suppose the actual unplugged concert is owned by MTV and is off-limits. I think I have it on mp3, Live at the Byrdhouse bootleg. Still havemt listened to it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
  23. Left Hand

    Left Hand Forum Resident

    Her name was Jules Bowen :).
     
  24. Lance LaSalle

    Lance LaSalle Prince of Swollen Sinus Thread Starter

    Thanks!
     
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  25. brownie61

    brownie61 Forum Resident

    I’m sitting out this week because I don’t have these two fan club CDs. I’ll be back next week for ENZSO.
     
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