Strictly for fans of Audio Note UK (all things Audio Note UK)

Yes there are exceptions. The original Quads, LS 3/5a, certain turntables, McIntosh etc. You may know of others.

 

That's a very keen price on a fairly recent build model for AN, I think the model has only been available for a couple of years now. The other sale the dealer made was ridiculous as the model you remarked is about $50 k so if he sells for 20% of retail then he ain't much of a salesman. You must have been happy with the price on your Jinro given he must have put $50 in your sky rocket to drag it out the door.

 

I had the SPX Al Nico speakers for about 2 years and I bought them from ANOTHER dealer in NYC for $9200 plus shipping (They were listed on Audiogon)....so I guess there is a LOT of "ridiculous" Audio Note Dealers here in the USA. I paid around 13K for the Dealer Demo Jinro....so about $22,500 for the pair.

I will also say that the Dealer that had the SPX Al Nico's with Crossovers had to list them THREE Times on Audiogon (3 Month duration) just to get somebody to pay 11-12K for them. Funny how people try to defend Audio Note prices BUT don't jump on these deals themselves when they are out there in the public eye for the taking. Proves my point that there isn't much of a secondary market for A/N Products unless its the lower tier stuff like OTO or the AN E/J/K model speakers for $2K-6K.

Rafe Arnott is having a GREAT time trying to unload his "Level 4" Audio Note CD/DAC Combo on Audio Mart. Its a 15K+retail price and he cant even get 5K for it. He's also listed it at least 3 times.

Richard....China will be a Democracy before somebody that buys brand new SPX Al Nico's will recoup their initial outlay. Neither of us will live long enough to see that happen.

 

I find all this talk of Hifi gear as an investment to be beside the point. My philosophy is to buy the best sounding equipment I can afford and hang on to it for a long time. Eventually, if I decide to upgrade, maybe I can get 50% of the original cost but maybe not. As an example, I bought Spendor SP100 speakers and Sound Anchor stands back in 2001 at full retail ($4000). After 15 years of listening to them I sold them for half that ($2000). Was that a good “investment”? Not in economic terms for sure, but the Spendors gave me great enjoyment for all that time so for me they had more than paid for themselves. Their resale value 15 years later was just a bonus.

 

The initial point wasn't about looking at this gear (or any gear) as an investment BUT more to the point that if your willing to wait and be patient you can find Mid Level - Higher End A/N gear on the USED market at very favorable prices due to lack of a sufficient fan base to support prices. Its the law of supply and demand as always.

 

I agree with you completely. A few years ago I was curious about Audio Note Kit DACs but not curious enough to pay retail. I found a used ANK DAC 3.1 Signature, bought it at a substantial discount, used it long enough to satisfy my curiosity, and then resold it for what I paid. I wouldn’t have been able to do that if I had bought it new. (And yes, I know ANK is not the same as AN-UK).

 

Other than collector items, such as Western Electric gear, nothing is a good "investment" in terms of monetary returns (i.e., not counting listening enjoyment). Western Electric, certain Altec pieces, certain Jensen drivers can be highly collectible and worth much more than the original price, and these items continue to go up in price with no die-off in interest. I don't think I have to worry about not getting what I paid for my 713b midrange compression driver. Even my "clone" amp, with mostly original Western Electric parts is worth more than I paid. I don't know about my linestage holding its value; it has Western Electric input and output transformers and 310 and 311 tubes, but the remotely controlled volume is a dead giveaway that it is not "original" (worse evidence than the UPC bar-code shown on eBay listings of "original" Beatles albums).

 

Because the market is small, the role of coincidence should be considered. At a certain moment there might just be that one buyer who has been waiting to buy a particular set of speakers and is willing to pay 50% or more of the retail price because that person is still saving a considerable amount of money.
I also think that there is a unique situation with CD players. The CD is a declining format.
None of this is intended as a critique of anything that has been said above

 

Billion$Baby makes a good point if presented with a lack of subtlety. He should also realise that most of the SHF members who use the higher AN level equipment are either dealers or distributors. They aren’t going to take kindly to poor residuals being pointed out in such a candid way. Existing customers trading in components to move up the ladder is an intrinsic part of their business. I’ve done my fair share of that so have historically supported the structure.

However It was because of the financial reality that I moved to S/H when buying my level 5 gear. 40/50% retail is about right for current spec S/H level 4. Slightly less for level 5. It’s allowed me to own equipment that would have been elusive had I had to buy new from a dealer.

All good but there is a caveat here. As most members will know there are a large number of fake AN components on sale out there and some others that are badly modified so “not all that glistens is gold”. Also the benefit of a GOOD dealer set up is priceless to many people. Some of the DIY set ups are so poor. I have a friend at AN who does home visits servicing faulty/ under performing gear here in the UK. He told me that a high percentage of AN systems aren’t optimised due to one or more of the above factors.

Hopefully all SHF members who own very good at all price points AN equipment have optimised systems.

 

Only A/N Dealer I am aware of on this page is Warren. As far as being "subtle" is concerned...here on the East Coast (NY/NJ/PA) many of us call it like we see it. TACT is in short supply. Its in the DNA...or in the water supply. Wont apologize for being straight forward and honest about my experiences...BUT I am sorry if you took offense in regards to your business. That was certainly not my intention.

I have no idea what your reference "Moved to S/H" means so forgive my ignorance.

 

S/H is short for second hand so I’m obviously not a dealer Billion$Baby. I’m a Yorkshire man from the UK so telling it as it is is in my DNA also which has unintentionally offended one or two guys on the forum. Warren is by far not the only one. Four more who post on this thread come to mind from various parts of the world

 

Wait. You paid $9200 and sold them for $11k to $12k?

 

Your very aware what I paid as I told you as soon as I bought them. You were seemingly disgusted at the time saying I should have had to have paid at least $12,000 for them since the List Price at the time was $24,000. I think "normal" people would have been HAPPY for the other person striking a good deal instead of disgruntled. Your memory is certainly failing you at your much younger age than yours truly. Be more than happy to re-hash anything in the open if that's your ploy.

 

Nothing at the high end market will retain price the same way the entry and middle level stuff retsins value. Rich guys with limitless budgets don't buy second hand and don't bargain hunt in thrift stores. They buy a new Lamborghini every two years...always need the most current models. They don't have 5 year old Apple or Samsung smartphones.

You can buy 8 year old $80,000 BMW's like the Z4 for $9,500. Poor and middle class which is also poor can't afford $80k anythings and they often can't afford the massive repair bills on an out of warranty Z4.

Ultimately, the more expensive something gets the less people can afford it. Maybe 90% of the posters on this forum could stretch their budgets to buy a $4,000 basic OTO amp. Less than 1% can afford to buy a second hand Jinro. And maybe .1% can afford to buy a new Jinro.

There are simply far less buyers the more expensive something gets. The more expensive the initial sale price the greater the depreciation. Further, higher ticket items take a lot longer to sell. As the housing market in Nanaimo or probably anywhere seems to indicate. $400k houses are getting more than the asking price. The townhouse identical to mine asked $429k and sold within a month for $436k. $750k home my friend is selling which has ocean views where you can see Humpback wales from the deck hasn't been able to move.

Still the guy buying the used Jinro at $12k now in 5 years will likely get no less than his $12k back. Especially if he sells to the Asian market where there are more rich audiophiles.

 

There is a lot of HiFi gear at all price points that holds its value better then AN does. Popularity drives demand which drives up used prices, nothing especially complicated at work. You can list a McIntosh amp for 80% of retail or more and it will be gone in a day.

 

Sorry I don't remember every person's purchase and sale prices on all the forums I posted on.

I believe in this thread you said you paid $9200 and sold them for $12k and I wanted to reaffirm with you that that is correct. If it IS correct then I am very happy for you. You made a near $3,000 profit on the loudspeaker. This means the speaker not only retained value for you but they went up 30% over the mere 2 years you owned them!

What other $9000 speaker (mainstrean or other) would sell for $12,000? 2 years later? Heck my stocks don't do as well!!

 

Let's start from the beginning:

1. Buyer #1 paid the $24,000 MSRP for a pair of speakers
2. Buyer #1 sold the speakers for $9200 -well under 50% of original value
3. Buyer #2 sold the speakers for $12,000, exactly 50% of value.

Concluding AN speakers are so hot they can be sold at a profit based on this example is rather problematic, no?

 

Depends what it is. I got banned on a forum because I noted that a McIntosh dealer sold an $8800 McIntosh amplifier for $2500 used. And it was a currwnt model. Some on the forum ripped me and they actually phoned the dealer to confirm. Which they did.

I don't think you actually have experience to talk about AN resale value.

I bought AN J/Spe speakers in 2003. $2500.

Now for the same money you could have purchased the B&W 805 (as mainstream and well known as it gets) or the Reference 3a MM DeCapo the B&W was a few hundred more in fact. $2800.

13 years later I sold the J/Spe for $2,920.

I saw the same exact Reference 3A in a second hand shop for $850 in mint condition. The 805 can be had for under $1k from that era. And my sale was a rush. I actually had a poster here sell them for me as I was heading back to Hong kong. Plus mine were in the unpopular black finish. The guy who bought em off me should be able to sell them for $3500 with some patience.

My 2003 OTO Phono Se amp fetches $2300 on the net sometimes more. I paid under $2000. My TT2 turntable sold for $600 more than I paid....for a turntable!! And I only had it for 2 years.

I have been offered double what I paid for.my AX two speakers because they're in beech finish which isn't available now apparently.

I also got a 100% refund on my AN K/SPe after 6 months of ownership before buying the J/SPe. All of these purchases were well before I became a reviewer btw.

This isn't to say there are not others that retain value but the J was particlarly noteworthy as i got $420 more than I paid after 13 years. If I bought the DeCapo I would have had a lesser sounding speaker for 13 years and a net loss of over $2000.

 

Sold them for 11500 just to be clear. They also came with 10 Feet of Brand New A/N SPE Silver Speaker Wire. (Have no idea what the value is on that)Total cost was 9500 so a 2K profit. I'll be happy to give you stock tips if you cant make 20% in 2 years time. That's how I retired at 44/45...the stock market...not my flipping of Audio gear.

 

Except for the fact that all of my AN gear has been bought used for ~50% of MSRP?

 

Well you are probably wrong with number 1 right at the outset. Here is the issue.

What you need to know is what the original person actually paid. No one pays MSRP. The price at the time Billions bought the speaker was $21,000MSRP. The original owner would have likely been an AN customer and pribably got at LEAST a 15% discount. Likely 20% off being a bigger ticket item. So the original buyer may have got em for $17,000.

And if you bothered to actually read my prior posts you would have read my 4 points and the first one is time. I said 10 years. The original buyer did not keep the speaker 10 years.

Thisbis not rocket science. Original buyer buys a speaker for $18k. If he kept it then in 3 years the MSRP goes from $21k to 24kk then $27k then $30k. Adter around 8 years. Then it may jump to $33k MSRP.

If the original buyer kept the speakers fron his purchae probably in 2015 in 2025 he would likely be able to sell the speaker for $16-18k. Prett damn close to what he actually paid for them in 2014 or 2015.

This is not an AN thing. It will work for ANY high end audio company. The ONLY reason it doesnt work for other companies is that those companies discontinue speakers every 4 to 5 years. Or the make a 2.0 model. That declares to the market that the old one is defective in some way. After all the new DeCapo has a BE tweeter and the old one is now deemed inferior.

People will want the new improved tweeter version not the old obsolete one. So the old DeCapi is worthless junk now according to public perception. IMO thebsilk dome one sounds much better. Yeah shrewd second hand shopper that buys the better sounding original for a fraction of the new one.

Basically, what I am saying is that rising MSRPs and the model not changing is good for the seller.

People look at the CURRENT MSRP. They don't ask what the original buyer paid.

 

You do understand the difference between having a company consistently raise the prices and having gear hold its resale value, right?

Yes, maybe the guy I bought AN-E SPE HE's from for half retail got a good deal on them, and maybe if he'd waited an extra decade or two to sell them the prices would have gone up, but surely you understand that's not generally what people are talking about when they talk about resale values, right?

The effort you go through to white knight this brand just gets bizarre.

 

Yes again though MSRP is great for long time AN owners. Everyone looks at MSRP. And everyone expects to pay around 50% of MSRP. I mean if I buy a used B&W 805 and see the 805 selling for $3k why would I buy a used one for $2600 when a brand new one with full warranty is $3000. I would buy a used one at $1500.

But the time thing I keep harping on. When you go on the net and see the AN J/SPe is $5800 you say I'll get it used for half. You pay $2900 for a 10 year old pair.

You WIN you saved a bucket of cash of the MSRP but what you didn't know is that the original buyer paid $2500. He wins. Everone wins.

 

Actually what I am saying has nothing to do with the brand and I have said several times that this works with any luxury brand. And I don't get why you don't get what I m saying.

All consumers look at the current price of a given product when determining what they will pay for a second hand item.

Audio buyers who buy a lot of gear second hand likely all have a 50% to 70% rule of what they will pay for a current model product. It doesn't matter what the product is enter ANY non Audio Note brand you like also include Audio Note. Got it. No brand loyalty fanboy thing at all... ANY BRAND got it?

If the item is $10,000 right now no one is paying $10,000 for a used one. They will pay $5,000 to $7,000 give or take the odd item.

Now you could argue 60% to 80% or 40 to 60 or whatever, but the crux is that whatever percent range you pick people look to see what the current MSRP is and apply that number to the used price. That is why Billions made more money. The MSRP increased and Billions made $2,000! He proves my point.

If in 2021 the new MSRP of ANY amplifier or speaker goes from $10,000 to $12,000 then the 50% to 70% still applies. So the second hand "range" increases to $6,000 to ~$8,500 from the $5k to $7k range mentioned earlier.

When the speaker hits $20k from 10k the range is now $10k to $14k on the second hand market.

So if you bought a brand new XYZ speaker for $10k and over time the speaker price doubles. So does the used price. You get your money back or more. This happened to me.

Again ANY brand. The only reason it seems to work more for Audio Note is simply because they keep models around long enough and the MSRP keeps rising.

Most companies that have items for over a decade have considerably higher prices now than 10 years ago. But as you know most companies sell something for 4 to 5 years and drop the model. Once the model is replaced the perception right or wrong is that the new one is better than the old one and the old one is somehow broken. As in it NEEDED to be fixed.

So these products no longer fall in the 50 to 80% range they fall to the 20 to 30% range.

You see it with surround sound receivers as an extreme example. Stores are lined with second hand surround receivers that often sold for $1500 to $2500 or more that you can pick up for $400 or less. Especially if they don't offer current surround technology pr lack HDMI. People will compare those old $2500 receivers and say gee a new $600 Marantz blows it away. Why would they pay more for a movie reproducer that sounds worse and is 15 years old with no warranty?

This works for something like the McIntosh 275 because it's been around for decades and the new ones cost more. It is highly likely that anyone who bought the McIntosh tube amps 20 years ago are getting more than they paid for them brand new.

I am sure there are many examples I just know it works for AN because they follow this principle and it has directly worked for me each and every product.

Billions is correct that it won't work nearly as well with the higher ticket items. I don't disagree.

 

My listening routine:
1. Open up my record cabinet
2. Open up Audiogon in my browser

Because for me, personally, the highs just don’t sound as sweet if I see used models of my gear going for less than 66.7%% of MSRP.

C’mon gentlemen, this is a ridiculous conversation.