System Sound Qualities that Better Connect You to Music?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by avanti1960, Mar 26, 2020.

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  1. Ontheone

    Ontheone Poorly Understood Member

    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Having a fast speaker that connects me in a tactile sense with acoustic instruments in particular. Plus most everything that's been said above!
     
  2. motorstereo

    motorstereo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ct.
    Detailed soundstage with a black background so the music jumps out at me.
     
    Jim0830 likes this.
  3. Habitant

    Habitant Forum Resident

    Location:
    British Columbia

    Honestly, before I went down the audiophile path I definitely enjoyed MORE music. Everything sounds OK on a boom box.
     
  4. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I can listen to music on Napster or You Tube through my cell phone's speaker and get a connection. I definitely don't think all the expensive gear is needed for that.

    But, I do own it, because it elevates the performance and the experience. And I want to hear my music as good as it can possibly sound.

    I am realizing that for me, I connect to music through its rhythm, its melody; the way music progresses from one second to the next. Maybe simple lo-fi systems often don't mess that up. I mean, this is why most people who love music listen on what we think are crappy systems. Do they get midrange purity, tone, huge dynamics, pinpoint imaging? No, but they get the tune.

    Not sure why some high end systems can mess this up when they sound too clinical...there is more going on, and more involved in correct set up, so maybe that has something to do with it.
     
    Shiver likes this.
  5. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    System doesnt matter much if the mastering is poor.
     
    William Bryant likes this.
  6. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    When I first restarted my adventure, I only had in mind a modest HT system for the office, so we could watch movies and a small system for the bedroom. At least for in-ear monitors and maybe some small speakers.

    I ended up with a refurbished Peachtree Nova, a $49 Sony streaming box, a $36 years subscription to Pandora One and a pair of Polk Monitor 70 Series II towers for $200 each. That was back in the fall of 2011.

    I actually love that little system, I could still listen to it every day. It sounded nice and clear, bass down to 40-Hz. and no harsh highs. I still have those speakers. $1,400 all in.

    Once I got started, I was like a kid in a candy store...

    The A7's, I came across on eBay. I bought them as a lark because I had my first pair built when I was 16. I really planned on keeping them in the closet and maybe for.a Portable P.A. system.

    But, one thing led to anothet.

    I'm one of those guy's who are always saying to themselves "what if I do this?" I just can't help it!

    Not really so much, I do most everything on the cheap, used, demos, refurbished and close outs.

    Lots of good used Klipsch and Altec legacy gear out there. But, it all needs to be restored and modified, if it is going to be used for high end home stereo gear.

    People dismiss horn speakers like the Altec's, because they have only heard unmodified stock speaker's, powered by SS amps.

    I don't blame people for having these opinions. A half century ago, I used mine for Rock Music, nothing better!

    The ideal thing about them, is their inherent ability to reproduce vocals and midrange. I have never heard midrange reproduced better.

    With the JBL super-tweeters, upgraged custom passive crossovers and subwoofer, they are now a comlpete 4-way horn loaded system.

    Going to tubes and then working my way through a dozen tube amps, I finally realized the sound quality that they were capable of.

    Starting with 150-watt tube monoblocks and finally ending up with a little 6V6GT 3.9-Watt Decware SET.

    I still have all the rock albums that I can play at Woodstock levels, but today, I am more content to listen to my Jazz, Acoustic Instruments and Female Vocals at 60-70 dB SPL's.

    Me too...
     
  7. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Growing up, music was played on modest systems (and that is putting it kindly).

    But, with audio, it was something that I caught on to as I got to be a teenager, and was exposed to real audio gear and understood what recorded music could sound like.

    Even at ten or eleven years old, I would sit in front of my little suitcase stereo and listen to my soundtrack album of Dr. Zhivago. I would sit in the movie theater by my house and listen to John Barry's score in the early James Bond movies.

    Back then, we listened to top-40 pop music on AM radio's.

    People I knew started listening to Andrew Loyd Webber and the Who on better systems and I was determined to get better sound. It wasn't until the age of sixteen, when I went to my first heavy rock concert by Grand Funk RR, that I really understood how real heavy rock music could sound, played properly.

    Which led me to having my first pair of Altec A7's built.

    But, since my early days, once I knew better, I never could listrn listen to badly reproduced music anymore.

    Back in the late 80's, CD's drove me away from music for over two decades.

    The funny part was, it never occurred to me to blame the "detailed" CD's.

    I was in now in my 30's and just could not connect with music any more. I didn't blame the CD's, I blamed myself for growing up. I wasn't a teen or a twenty-something any more.

    How could I blame CD's, they were crystal clear, detailed and no background noise?

    Over the years I grew to hate digital music.

    But it was to be digital music played from YouTube videos, through my laptop and cheap earbuds that brought me back into music in the spring of 2011.

    I bought a Samsung player and Monster Turbines IEM's.

    But, you know what, despite getting into some state of the art (for me, that is), I never abandoned my Pandora.

    It is notvthe set up. Most systems today ARE too clinical. Neither stereo salesmen no their customers, really know any better.

    Ignorance is BLISS...
     
  8. William Bryant

    William Bryant Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nampa, Idaho
    Glad the next word was “speaker.” Had me worried there for a second.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  9. Jim0830

    Jim0830 Forum Resident

    • Listening to a well recorded LP at a close to realistic volume
    • A black background with no hiss, groove noise, clicks and pops
    • An accurate realistic soundstage where the musicians seem independent of the confines of the speakers.
     
    SandAndGlass and jheyesen like this.
  10. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I agree most systems are clinical. I still think that set up might be a part of it. Your system is not typical - with three sets of speakers, it probably throws a lot of the set up considerations out the window that you would typically have to consider for a standard 2 channel set up. I have found, with tweaking my system's set up, that there is a lot of potential that can be unlocked. That's why I mention set up having an impact. But, regardless of setup, maybe most systems would remain this way.

    I think your line about YouTube videos, your laptop and cheap earbuds proves you don't need a great system to emotionally connect to the music. That's kind of the point I am trying to make in this thread. There is something else, something a lot more basic to this, than what only a higher end system can bring.
     
  11. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    You're kidding?

    Setting up one system is child's play.

    I can't begin to count all of the various single systems that I have set up during the past 50-years.

    It took me years to figure out how to best configure and optimize each and every component, in order to get three separate systems (driven from the same source) to work together.

    Each system can operate independently of the others.

    The system was optimized for that specific room.

    The system operates for both HT and standard 2-channel stereo.

    The system on the audio end consists of three, two channel systems that are pure stereo channels, when not in the HT mode and operate without using any DSP.

    I can listen to the system with only two front stereo mains, just like everybody else's system.

    But, I Generally don't because I find it less involving than with the added rear stereo towers.

    The room itself is very deceiving.

    The entire office suite is built like a bunker. If you look at the photo of the outside of the motel (after my equipment listing, everything looks like a normal little motel, but it is not.

    It is protected to withstand the winds of a category 4 or 5 hurricane.

    The large window on the side of the building is covered in a 3/8" thick, 5' x 10' sheet of Lexan.

    That single sheet of Lexan cost $950 by itself, without installation costs.

    All of the exposed windows are double windows. The Lexan sheets have tubular aluminum to separate them from direct contact with the glass. You couldn't get through one of those lexan sheets with a sledge hammer.

    There are three layers of protection over the front door, enough to stop a 38 or 9mm bullet.

    Every aspect of the room is sound insulated. It is super quiet on the inside and the insulation will attenuate music on the inside, played at high SPL's from escaping the room.

    The system is designed not only to play back music but to recreate the ambience of of original concert venues.

    The gear covers both analog and digital, class "A" dingle ended, class A/B and class "C", amplification from both tubes and solid state, with a power range from 3.9-Watts up to 1,600-Watts. There is both modern and legacy gear, home audio and pro-audio gear.

    And, all of it can work together, seamlessly.

    Just a bit more complicated than a single system with one amp and two speakers.
     
  12. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    right now im listening to art blakey and the jazz messengers live in moers 1976 and i gotta say having good separation of instruments is helping me to really enjoy this record.
    i can easily hear clarity that separates the bass, the horns, the drums and especially the piano. im following along with the rhythm of each and can focus on the flow and timing of one or the other as i choose and it is really a cool engaging experience.
     
    lonelysea and George P like this.
  13. jonwoody

    jonwoody Tragically Unhip

    Location:
    Washington DC
    Natural warmth, tonality and timbre and great presence. I particularly hate early stereo where everything is panned hard right and left almost can't listen to it at all.
     
  14. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Well, I have no idea, never having tried to set up such a system. My thinking was, with a single set of speakers, we are asking them to do a lot in creating an illusion that is convincing. One that, with the help of two other sets of speakers, might be easier to achieve, because that first set is getting help from the other two. A bit of reinforcement. Of course, I'm sure that one needs to take great care in integrating them so they work together well. I never said it was easier to set up such a system. Only that some of the things you have to consider might be different.

    Again, as you say, a system with three pairs of speakers might be more involving. I can see how that would be. You have sound coming from all directions. Now try to maximize how involving one pair of speakers is. You are a little handcuffed with just one pair. It probably can't equal what 3 pairs can do. Most of us don't want 3 pairs of speakers playing at once anyways, but trust me when I say we do all want an involving system, and that can be achieved with some care and effort. That's all I'm saying.

    Anyways, not really wanting to get into all of that as most of us aren't going down the path of a multi speaker system. My point is, that unless a 2 speaker system is set up optimally, it won't be at it's best. And many systems that we come across are not set up optimally. I mean, when I go to a dealer, that's usually the case. At a show, it is often the case (and I know they have challenges). So, how do we know with certainty that that does not impact on emotional engagement? Only at home, where you have people that are committed, will you maybe get close to proper set up. And even then, a lot of us have hurdles that we simply can't or won't overcome, and so we have to live with some amount of compromise.

    I think of this as resolution. The ability to follow the musical line of each instrument within a dense soundscape that has many things going on. Definitely one of the things that I need my system to do.
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  15. vs_jk

    vs_jk Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    If the system has good balanced sound at least, then the top priority for me is holographic soundstaging.
     
    Echoes Myron likes this.
  16. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    While I absolutely can get emotionally involved with iphone buds or cheap sony buds, when it comes to speakers, im much more easily disturbed by the substandard sq of cheap speakers. I wouldnt listen to my laptop speakers or cheap small speakers.

    I own and owned very high end headphones, i find even cheap Ibuds or sony buds still gives you 70% of the SQ of high end cans.
    cheap speakers gives you 20% of what a good speaker system can do.
     
  17. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    No, it can't, which is the reason for multiple amps and speakers.

    Quite true, two speakers or twenty, they all must be set up optimally.

    Once I evolved my system, I got to the point that I couldn't even listen to speakers at dealers.

    Even in that room, many compromises were made.

    The room had to serve as my office for the motel, it had to accommodate my diner and a movie guests, children's sleepovers, the list goes on... The 65" TV and speakers in the corner weren't a problem like they would be in a normal room because the wall in that corner is 6' deeper than on the right side.

    With the wall being on an angle, then the gear in the corner, is not sticking out into the room like it would in a normal rectangular room.

    But not so much with the Altec's. They are the white elephant in the room, no getting around that. They sit where they have to sit.

    Not exactly the optimum position for them, but I have to make due.

    Other members have Altec A7 cabinets also. There is no way that they are going to blend into any room.

    My rear speakers are Boston Acoustic M-350s. Although they are excellent speakers, I would have liked to have the Polk LSiM707's, the same as in the front but there was just not enough room to accommodate them.

    You do what you can do...
     
  18. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    That's a very interesting observation.

    I was away from stereo for a couple of speakers and it was a very inexpensive pair of earbuds which brought me back in to listening to music again.

    I upgraded to a couple hundred dollar I.E.M.'s (In Ear Monitors) a dedicated Samsung MP3 player and CD's that I had ripped to it.

    I really could not believe the quality, considering the low investment. And even the first el-cheapo ear buds sounded better to me than listening to average speakers.

    I think that you are absolutely right about the sound quality that cheap buds can give you.

    You have to spend a lot more money on speakers and upstream equipment to match the sound quality of inexpensive buds.

    As a matter of fact, you need to have really nice speakers and excellent upstream gear to match the sound of headgear in the $200-$400 price range.

    If I wanted to listen critically to the details in a recording, I would do it on some type of headgear, not speakers.

    I consider a system involving when it can match the quality of decent cans or I.E.M.'s. But once you get to that overall system quality level, it is infinitely more involving to experience music outside of your head than within your head.

    Once I got to that level with my audio gear, I never used my headgear.
     
  19. Otlset

    Otlset I think I am I think

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Besides the characteristics most have described above, I have found as I have upgraded my system (mostly tube swapping these days), the improvements in the bass response keep surprising me and is just so delightful. If a recording has any bass, my system will show it to me -- a gorgeous, tasty, tuneful, rich and sublime bass that now lets me hear it clearly. And when it goes deep without losing volume in records where I've never quite heard it do that before, ahh, it delivers a minor ecstasy of sorts, difficult to describe, but boy am I connected to the music then!
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  20. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I agree completely. It's all in the mid's and in that punchy mid bass as well. If something is missing there the magic is lost IMO.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  21. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    What are you referring to with that last line? If it is the audiophile stuff like imaging, soundstage, dynamics, midrange purity, tone, detail, presence, etc. then yes. Cheap speakers can't really do these things.

    Or are you saying that cheap speakers can't convey the emotion in music. Because that's really what this thread is about. I think they can. Not that I prefer to listen to cheap speakers - of course not. But sometimes, when I'm cooking say, I play some tunes on my cellphone. Or when I'm working out, I play songs on my old boombox. Neither is good sound (the boom box is much better than the phone), but I can feel the emotion in the music. Sometimes I feel high end systems can't get to the heart of that, because they are doing so many other things that distract from just the song. A high end system that can get to the heart of that, giving you the emotion and all the audiophile stuff, would obviously be the way to go. And maybe it's partly me - I'm obviously not listening critically at all when I hear a song on my cellphone.

    I love listening to concert bootlegs. When you get a great recording, it's just amazing to hear. But a lot of them are inevitably recorded poorly. It would be like listening to a great recording on lousy speakers. Even worse in some cases. But as a listener, you have to listen through that and focus on the song and it's energy. It still comes through most of the time.

    Definitely moving up a level on the cheap speaker front, I recently bought some inexpensive 5" active studio monitors (PreSonus Eris E5) to serve as my computer speakers. I have a nice audiophile sound card from ESI. I think the speakers cost me about $200 (less than the boombox was I think). For the money, they sound great, and they start to do some of the audiophile things that we expect from a high end system. Great to watch TV shows and movies on, and to discover new tunes on YouTube or Napster.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  22. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I get what you are saying, but I dunno?

    I think that there is a distinct difference between good playback of a poor quality recording and bad playback of a good recording.

    Comming from the rock concert era, the best example of a live rock concert recording would be Steppenwolf Live, which is a flawless recording.

    I own this album now, as I owned the original album back in my teens.

    Unlike most other teens, I owned a custom built pair of Altec Lansing A7's.

    Now, as someone who has actually attended rock concerts back in the day, including Steppenwolf, let me relay that through the A7's, cranked up, it is litterally a recreation of a rock concert in your living room.

    My all time favorite album track is Monster. It is 9:56 long, allowing you time to step back and get into the groove.

    If we are talking system sound qualities that help you connect with the music and you like live rock music, then it absolutely doesn't get better than this.

    No kidding, this is what Altec A7's were born to do.

    But, while there are other live recordings that don't have control over the sound quality of the original concert, like the Grand Funk Live album, there is still a live energy dynamic that is REAL.

    It is real to me because I have the right playback system that checks all of the boxes.

    Your basically listening to music played back, through the same type of gear that you heard, if you were at a rock concert.

    If the original recording was gritty then the playback will be authentic and it will be gritty also.

    That is perfectly OK.

    Playing back a good recording through bad equipment/speakers, not so much, that's just bad sound. Bad sound is not audio.
     
  23. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    I think most will be down to distortion in the end. It will cover a lot, albeit a bit abstract. But if we call something 'resolution', that is extremely important to me in many aspects.
     
  24. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Depends on mood for me. I do mostly like dynamics though. A lively sound mostly does it for me.
    For classical and jazz I love soundstage and imaging. Dynamics are still my top there as well.
    Resolution is up there but less than the others I mentioned. I of course don’t want a blur , but it doesn’t have to be super duper high res or anything. Pfft.

    But definitely dynamics. Most important thing of music is rhythm
     
    Dream On likes this.
  25. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I have also attended my share of live rock concerts. I have no intention of recreating that in my room, mostly because I value my hearing. Plus, I listen to other genres as well. Jazz, classical, folk. I'm not just looking for a rock system, but I need the system to do rock justice. So it needs impressive dynamics and attack. It can't sound thin, it should pressurize the room a bit, and it needs to go loud but not to ear splitting levels. I play loud enough that you wouldn't be able to have a conversation with someone without yelling, so it's loud. It's just not to the point where my ears start to overload or get fatigued. And it's a small room, so it doesn't take much to fill it.

    No one is saying sell your rig and start listening through a poorly made system. I'm aware that they sound bad and I would not want to listen to them very often. I'm not talking about sound quality though. I'm just saying that some of these systems can still convey the emotion in music, whereas there are high end systems that are unquestionably more capable with 1,000 times better sound quality, yet they somehow sound boring and clinical.
     
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