Tapestry Records

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by seed_drill, Mar 29, 2009.

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  1. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    Sorry but further posturing does not build a better case. I don't presume to know one way or the other. But I have not seen any hard evidence such as an official comment from any of the holders of the copyrights that Tapestry has allegedy violated.

    Allegedly....



    Yeah with the recent Universal remasters. I liked the A&M LPs better. Not sure how that provides me with the answer as to what those Tapestry LPs I dig were cut from.
     
  2. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    They sound much better than a roled off cd. Plenty of body and punch to the sound not sterile and thin. These sound better than something processed through a standard pc. A few other members who have heard these like the sound. It is possible there are copies of the tapes not in the possesion of the record company that have been aquired from the artists or others involved in the original recordings. These are not a shoddy job in my opinion better than a lot of Simply Vinyl and Earmark output and judging from other comments bettering some Back to Blacks, 4MWB etc. Of course paying the copywrite holder for use is a different matter.
     
  3. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF
    :rolleyes:

    Here's some "soft" evidence:

    1. No contact info.
    2. No website.
    3. Extraordinarly short period in which they issued LPs and then disappeared.
    4. Released mostly stuff controlled by majors.

    Whether some of it as "obscure English folk" or not, the Decca stuff, for example, is owned and cotrolled by Universal. Since I presume we can agree that Universal would not compete against itself and license out recordings they control to a company in Leichenstein when they were almost simultaneously reissuing some of that stuff in a partnership with Si-Wan themselves (IE: Mellow Candle, Spriguns), then I suppose your argument is simply that they made deals with all of those dozens of artists directly. And if such is the case, let us just say that if they did make deals with all of those artists directly, they must have had a bank of people on the phone in a tiny German speaking ♥♥♥♥ry who spoke good English and called 24 hours a day for a stretch that would kill mere mortals. Because they issued a lot of stuff in a very short period of time.

    I mean, fer chrissakes, they reissued Mellow Candle's Swaddling Songs just after a beautiful, legit, ltd. 500 white vinyl repressing hit the market by Universal/Si-Wan. I suspect they didn't know that was on the way when they pressed up their version in a horrific, trashy looking cover which looked like it hailed from a tenth generation photcopy that somebody took a leak on.

    Own the stuff if you wish. I pass no judgment on that and in some cases they have repressed things that are only available as super expensive originals.

    But give us a break.
     
  4. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    Well, we agree on one thing. That really is soft evidence. Clearly we don't agree on the value of soft evidence or the certainty of anything deducted from soft evidence

    You made a false presumption. Show me a statement from a bonified representative from Universal stating the above to be the case then we can agree on your premise. Otherwise it is just another argument premised on apparent speculation. I can't go there with you. I don't know Universal's policies or decisions on issueing licences for limited editions of LPs. If you have something from Universal that clearly states some official policy regarding the matter let's see it. then I *can* go there with you.

    What? That has never happened before? Reissues on vinyl that were very close in time from different labels? So who pirated The Dylan titles? Simply Vinyl or Sundazed? What about the Elvis titles? Simply vinyl or Speaker's Corner? I can go on and on with examples.

    By the way have you ever actually done a head to head comparison between any titles that were both issued by Si-Wan and Tapestry? I have. No contest. Tapestry was far superior. And as someone who owns that copy of the Tapestry issue of Mellow Candle LP I must say IMO you have totally mischaracterized the quality of the cover art image.


    I think I have given you a break. I haven't rolled my eyes, made any presumptions or made inferences about you personally. I am not agonstic on the subject of Tapestry's legitimacy because I own a few of their LPs and wish to justify owning them. I am agnostic because of a profound lack of any *real* evidence in regards to their guilt or innocence. You and I seem to have very different opinions on the merits of guilt by circumstance and prejudice. I find the second meritless and the first one step above that. You seem to find them quite convincing. I don't think we will agree on the merits of your arguments as they stand. I am always open to new evidence. It just has to be real evidence.
     
  5. Music Emporium

    Music Emporium Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spain
    it's clear that given the links betwen sony and sundazed, their reissues of dylan were legit.......... insinuating speakers corner / simply vinyl might be in the same category as timeless / tapestry makes me laugh and it's insulting for these labels......

    everyone is entlited to his own opinion but the quality of si-wan reissues is much better than tapestry not even a close contest in my opinion.......
     
  6. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    You see, that's the sort of trap you fall into when you rely on supposition instead of hard evidence! In fact, right now, Universal is itself reissuing or is about to reissue several Motown LPs that it has simultaneously licensed out to Speakers Corner for reissue. Crazy but true.

    Music Emporium - you're not seriously putting Simply Vinyl in the Speakers Corner category? I've never owned a Simply Vinyl LP but it's significant I think that Simply Vinyl, although legit, would never discuss its sources. Most people assumed they mostly used CDs.
     
  7. Music Emporium

    Music Emporium Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spain
    simply vinyl reissues were legit, the sound?, digital for sure but they were clear about that .......
     
  8. Paul K

    Paul K Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Simply Vinyl never made anything clear about where their sources came from! That was half the guessing with them...nonsense about "if it was a British band then possibly they used tape" or something like that...

    BTW what is all this dumping on Jeff for? I think he makes quite a legitimate claim for Tapestry not being tremendously on the up and up...

    As people may or may not know...licensing this stuff costs a lot of money...and if the majority of master license holders are major label companies...the amounts can be crippling...I mean...look at the efforts that have to go into (probably endless negotiations for eg) licensing stuff by Audio Fidelity...
    No way this stuff is cheap...
    Look I have some albums from Tapestry and while I think they have excellent taste and all, I think they would have to be insanely rich to pay the fees required and then limit the production to less than 1000 lp's sold to make back their investment...

    It just doesn't really make sense otherwise....

    It is really disheartening to see members who obviously like similar music and are united by a common love of the best that this music can be are sniping at each other...
     
  9. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF

    While this can happen on rare occasion, are you actually comparing the fact that Universal decided to reissue some Motown LPs that have been recently issued on Speaker's Corner in the same category as the theory that Universal simultaneously licensed out titles to a company that:

    A: Lists no Universal licensing info on their releases.
    B: Has no contact info.
    C: Apparently existed in Leichenstein
    D: Never had a website
    E: Never had an email address.

    :confused:
     
  10. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF
    Yeah, you mentioned this once before and I tried to get you to describe what the differences were. Still waiting. Sorry, "SUPERIOR BECAUSE IT SOUNDS BETTER, DUDE!!!!" won't be very helpful, but if you care to explain the differences in tonaility, compression, etc., I'd be interested.

    Keep in mind that pirates often have great record collections and can repress from the original vinyl, which could reveal a sonic similarity to an original. I have pirates like this out of Germany dating all the way back to the 80s, and some sound fantastic and have saved me hundreds of dollars on the early 70s originals. Of course, pirates didn't try to pass stuff off as legit on those older pirate repressings. The labels were just plain obvious. The internet wasn't around so developing distribution wasn't as easy and all the record collectors and dealers would have known the difference in legit and illegit product anyway. I don't know how those were done, but maybe they just rolled a tape of the original and cut from that. Anyway, modern day pirating is more impressive, although I'm sure if somebody at Tapestry saw this thread they would be on the floor with laughter at all the justifications, denials and court trial nonsense. There is no "hard evidence" when it comes to this stuff. These guys set up one label, then another, then another ... they are gone fast. One just has to use the simplest of logic and perhaps be a bit familiar with collecting vinyl to see how obvious it is that Tapestry is just a freaking pirate label; probably run by some guy with a great record collection who folded that name and will start under a different label name soon. :laugh:


    You think so, eh? Pick up a legit pressing one day and compare the two.:shh:

    Or don't and consider yourself lucky to have never seen how uttely pathetic the difference is.:laugh:
     
  11. krlpuretone

    krlpuretone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grantham, NH
    I would imagine the vinyl licensing rights to ANYTHING for Lichtenstein would be about the price of a turntable mat.
     
  12. Paul K

    Paul K Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Record companies don't discern by place...it's all usage to them...
     
  13. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    I did not insinuate anything of the sort. the argument was made that the close proximity in time between LP reissues of the same titles by Si-Wan and Tapestry somehow constituted "evidence" that Tapestry had no legitimate licence. I simply pointed out examples of the same sort of thing happening between labels like Sundazed Speakers Corner and Simply Vinyl. As for my opinion on the merits of releases by Tapestry and Si-Wan they are based on actual head to head blind comparisons. What is your opinion based on? When I get back from Vancouver, anyone in the L.A. area is welcome to come over and make the same blind comparisons for themselves. I really doubt that anyone will disagree.
     
  14. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF
    It isn't that they licensed for release in Liechtenstein. Tapestry LPs have been available worldwide; mostly through second hand record shops, independent record dealers, etc...

    The point was that they claimed to be based in Liechtenstein.
     
  15. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF
    Well, sometimes a records label will license out for a limited release in a certain country. Some of Si-Wans early licensing agreements allowed them to sell LPs/CDs in Korea and by Mail Order only, for example.

    But this has nothing to do with Tapestry, who clearly distrubuted their pressings worldwide.

    Again, the simulataneous releases are just one example anyway. People who are clinging to some little grasp of hope are stuck on that. Forget it, and look at the other half dozen reasons why it should be blatantly obvious that Tapestry are nothing more than a pirate label.

    Does this mean all their LPs will sound bad? Of course not. I've heard great sounding illegal pressings. They may have even repressed some of their stuff from owning the original vinyl, as I said. Other stuff seems to have come from CDs. Who knows ... the point is that if one sounds good to you then one should enjoy it. Trying to argue that Tapestry is somehow legit, I don't follow, but I'm bored with this.

    Next. ;)
     
  16. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    You will have to wait until I get back from Vancouver. I have done many many shootouts of this nature. I don't keep the specifics memorized. If there is a clear winner I make note of it and move on. I don't remember all the specifics as much as I do remember this was not a close contest. If you are ever in the L.A. area when I am actually home you are welcome to come on over and make the comaprison yourself. If not you will just have to wait till I get back. Sorry about that.


    One specific thing I do remeber was that the Tapestry was distinctly quieter than the Si-Wan. I doubt the Tapestry was mastered from a needle drop. (Note that this is in regards to other titles, one by Spriguns) I could be wrong.


    This is just plain arguement by ad hominem. It's more posturing without substance. Your arguement now is that you are so obviously right and I am so obviously wrong that the folks at Tapestry would laugh at my foolishness. Again, an argument with zero substance.


    That is plainly not true. As someone who has actually licenced copyrighted material I can assure you that there is "hard evidence" that a copyright has been violated when it has actually happened. I know, I nailed a few bootleggers.



    The same logic you used has either Simly Vinyl or Sundazed or Speakers Corner as pirates as well. I don't share your confidence in your arguments. They are plainly premised on huge assumptions


    What are you trying to say? I am always interested in getting the best sounding versions of the music I love. I'm not following you. You kind have lost me there. I should pick up a "legit copy?" (that being the original Deram and/or the Si-Wan? Are they the same in quality?) or consider myself lucky?
    Am I to take it you did a shoot out between the three issues and found the Deram and Si-Wan so excellent that it left the Tapestry sounding "pathetic" by comparison? I would not hesitate to get an original Deram if I could find one at an affordable price.
     
  17. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    Digital for sure? Ever heard any of the Kate Bush titles on Simply Vinyl? folks with their broad brushes........
     
  18. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    I think that is the problem here. There is a lot of "imagining" going on. And by imagining I mean presumptions with little or no evidencial support. Licences come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. While one can look at Tapestry and find tell tale signs of illegitimacy those tell tale signs do not *prove* anything. They certainly raise serious doubt. I'm just not willing to draw hard conclusions on "doubt".
     
  19. Jeff Carney

    Jeff Carney Fan Of Specifics (No Koolaid)

    Location:
    SF
    The Tapestry sounded good, from what I recall. I'll spin it again one day. The Si-Wan/Universal release, the original Si-Wan release and the Zen pirate LP all sound great, too. Mellow Candle's Swaddling Songs is a great sounding album, IMO. I haven't heard the Acme LP, but since their CD release was no-noised, I was afraid there'd be little point in bothering.

    The problem with the Tapestry version of Mellow Candle was the worst cover art reproduction I've seen from them. Don't know what happened. It was simply atrocious.

    As far as an original Deram of Mellow Candle, that would cost about 2 grand, so I don't expect I'll be hearing one.

    Anyway, this has gotten way off track. I have no problem with anyone owning Tapestry LPs and I have a few, myself. I just don't think there is any question about their legitimacy. They aren't legit, IMO. We can agree to disagree, I guess.
     
  20. Music Emporium

    Music Emporium Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spain
    no need to offend anyone........
     
  21. krlpuretone

    krlpuretone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grantham, NH
    Well, people also presume that a major label quote official unquote release ensures monies made on licensing go to the artists and that master tapes are used

    we all know that isn't the case...
     
  22. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    Sorry, no offense intended but if you do some searches on Simply Vinyl I think you will see that it isn't all that for sure and that a blanket dismisal of their product based on such an overly broad claim might steer folks away from some excellent product.
     
  23. Music Emporium

    Music Emporium Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spain
    no problem........yes I'm aware of the discussions about the sources used by simply vinyl, regarding tapestry I revisted my copy of swaddling songs and it's far better than I remember it, better than my si-wan?? not sure but I agree with jeff that the artwork is not in the same league ... probably some releases are better than others , caravan first LP wasn't all that good.......

    legit or not?, I'm leaned toward not legit but as you stated is pure speculation in the end, we don't know who is behind this label......

    another thing, timeless or tapestry is not radioactive or akarma, that are the worst two reissue labels in the world in my opinion......
     
  24. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Well said, Jeff. I've no problem at all in accepting your opinion that they aren't legit, as long as it's expressed as an opinion. I think your arguments are very convincing and in my opinion, it's very likely they aren't legit, although I probably feel slightly less sure than you do. Scott seems inclined to give them a bit more wiggle room. As someone said, we're all entitled to our opinions. :righton:

    Now, Music Emporium, don't get me started on Akarma!
     
  25. Paul K

    Paul K Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Actually...let's talk about Akarma for a second...
    What were their sources for the most part?

    Let's start with the "Dark Around the Edges" LP for eg...
     
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