TÁR (2022) dir. Todd Field, stars Cate Blanchett

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Brendan K, Oct 12, 2022.

  1. Crack To The Egg

    Crack To The Egg Forum Resident

    Location:
    OR
    Thank you all for the replies. I’ll just say the greater point of that debate scene is missed if you focus on if Tár’s point was correct or valid.

    You can not believe in gravity, but gravity still believes in you. The idea that the artist can be separated from the art plays out in contrast to her own expectations of how the world should be and, I’d argue, with many of the personal beliefs expressed in this thread.
     
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  2. The law of gravity is immutable. Someone may one day find a way to finesse or transcend its constraints, which reliably and predictably support all of the physical operations of the material realm. But the effects of gravity aren't going to shift back and forth from era to era depending on the caprice of culture and social values.

    I'd venture that quite a number of us never thought we'd see the day where someone could argue that a man is a "misogynist" simply on the basis that he fathered 20 children. (Between the years 1708 and 1742; all of them borne by his two wives; he married the second wife after being widowed. Many of those children died at birth or in infancy; infant mortality was much higher in 18th century Germany than it is now. FAQ 23 – How Many Children Did J.S. Bach Have?
    Q: How many children did J.S. Bach have? A: Loads. Here’s what we know. - Classic FM ...that pesky Due Process.)
    It's understating the obvious to say that the accusation of Bach's "misogyny" lacks the durability of the law of gravity. The mere fact that the instructor feels the need to address such a facile assertion- dropped as an excuse for a refusal to gain any familiarity with J. S. Bach's monumental artistic contributions- is a winking acknowledgement of just how crazy things have gotten nowadays. But the au courant fatuity of the moment isn't built to last. It isn't an authentic justice movement; it doesn't even qualify as activism. I think this essay has the most incisive take on the game: Wokeness is not a politics Instead, it's self-indulgent, superficial exercise, informed by a callow and unexamined perspective.

    Consider that the scene in question could work intact and unaltered in a completely different movie, with an entirely different plot and thematic emphasis.

    In my opinion, its inclusion in the film we're discussing is intended to add complexity to Lydia Tar's character. She's an out, proud "U-Haul lesbian", as she openly proclaims to her class just moments before getting into it with the student over Bach. And her defense of a "dead straight white male" shows that Tar isn't just a grandstanding "social justice movement" poser; she isn't going to throw Bach over the side as an "act of solidarity." Given the contemporary campus climate, a professor in an elite school would be on much safer ground by acting obsequious to whatever rhetorical performance of valorized marginal identity one of their students might decide to put on for their peers; in academia, performative kowtowing to performative identity preening is the safe way out these days. But Lydia Tar refuses to do that. ("****ing bitch!") A stance that serves the story in two ways: it saves Lydia Tar from being reduced to some W.I.T.C.H.-type Lesbian Identity caricature, and it also preserves lesbian identity from being caricatured on the basis of Tar's individual transgressions, when they're eventually exposed. (If only it worked that way for everyone. If only people were evaluated on the basis of their own actions, and not judged a priori, based on categorical identity.)

    That's what this film does: it adds ground-level complexity and idiosyncratic complication, wherever it can. That's what makes it real, and not some cookie cutter didactic exercise in identity politics. We see it later on, when Tar discusses the German Nazi-era conductors Karajan and Furtwangler, and the hit taken to the reputations of both of them in relation with their association with the Hitler era- even though, as Tar points out, the two cases are very different; Furtwangler resisted about as much as he could while still remaining in the graces of the Nazi regime. His refusal to perform the "Horst Wessel Lied"- the anthem of the SS- was walking on thin ice. Furtwangler had to have antagonized Himmler and Hitler with that refusal. Furtwangler did still cling to his position and prestige instead of exiling himself and condemning the regime, and that has to be seen as a moral failure. But not a failure as great as that of Berlin Philharmonic conductor Karajan, a Nazi Party member. It's complicated.

    Then, later on, the class session where Tar dresses down the student is revisited; it's presented via social media, where spliced video clips of the session are posted out of context to mislead viewers, with the original in-class phone recording reduced to a few snippets intended to further the case of her Trial by Social Media. No pesky Due Process there! Just Lydia Tar, blindsided by the tragic after-effects of a dalliance that she had thought she could simply distance herself from by consigning it to past, that instead provided telling evidence of a pattern of abusive behavior and callousness to which she had given no actual reflective thought. And then she got targeted by 21st century Internet mob lynching, and pushed over the edge.

    Was Lydia Tar guilty of leading on some of her proteges in return for sexual favors, and then discarding them? Yes. But some lynching victims in the American South (around 20% of them white, by the way) were guilty of the crimes of which they were accused, as well. The fact of guilt doesn't justify lynching. A messy, difficult reality. And not nearly as easy to assess and judge as the effects of the law of gravity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2023
  3. Ando II

    Ando II explorer

    Location:
    Trenton, NJ
    What does belief have to do with any of it? Music is what it is while it is. And when it's over so is any point.
     
  4. I'd argue that the problem is more about assumptions that artists are some sort of advanced being because they're artists, for no other reason than they've created something that's widely appreciated and valued. A result of being over-identified with their best work, rather than separated from it.The artist walking around on the street is not made of the same amazing stuff as their masterworks. By and large, they're just pretty random examples of ordinary people, going through the run of changes that make up living as a human being. Moods and thoughts and actions, drives and desires, hopes and fears. If that sounds commonplace, well...really, why should another human being expect otherwise?

    The core problem there isn't about the Art. It's about Fame and Acclaim, which is as much a problem of the audience as it is the person being elevated. In particular, the more acclaim and fame someone achieves, the more they attract people wanting things from them that they aren't prepared to deal with. It's bad enough that a lot of people don't know how to act around Stars; what's worse is that some of them bring so much neediness and/or willingness to give to an interpersonal encounter that it's difficult to properly respond. When that situation is connected with temptation- and sexual temptation is the biggest one- it's easier to weaken than if one isn't constantly being bombarded with opportunities to cross the line into misbehavior by exploiting ones newly exalted status.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
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  5. Ando II

    Ando II explorer

    Location:
    Trenton, NJ
    a musician's take on the infamous Juilliard scene -

     
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  6. 905

    905 Senior Member

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    I liked this movie a lot more than I thought I would. I didn't lose interest at all, and I need to rewatch after reading about it here and on reddit.
     
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  7. dougotte

    dougotte Petty, Annoying Dilettante

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I finally watched it on Peacock. I scanned many of the posts here, but apologize if I'm rehashing some points that were already discussed.

    1) I wonder how much of the film's structure echoed Mahler's 5th? I'm familiar with the symphony and some theories about it, but am too ignorant to make such a huge symbolic connection.
    2) When she was boxing, her punches seemed to be the rhythm of the main theme from the above symphony.
    3) I was very impressed with Cate's performance, but she delivered some lines in an awkward way. An example is during the interview at the beginning. But then, I realized that maybe some of the dialogue was a bit clunky and would be hard for any actor to deliver naturally. In fact, a lot of the dialogue seemed overly mannered and stilted. But, maybe professional classical musicians speak this way.
    4) I had subtitles on, and at the train station near the end, the announcer's language was noted as "Thai." But, the subsequent dialogue was noted as "Tagalog." Maybe she had a layover in Thailand before ending up in The Philippines. This movie was very subtle, and this is one example where they don't spell out exactly what's happening. The viewer has to pay close attention and fill in the gaps.
    5) I agree that she was brutal with Sam during the master class, but it was justified due to his ridiculous positions. Then, I had to laugh when he ended by spouting "You're a b****", which undercut his supposedly evolved views.
    6) A couple of musical points that are related and should have been clarified. During the initial interview, she said one of the main purposes of a composer is time (both to keep it and to stretch or suspend it for interpretation purposes). I'm surprised she didn't also mention that a large ensemble can't hear everyone, so the conductor must keep everyone together. Similarly, when discussing the balance between a solo part vs. the strings, her partner said she thought it was right. I doubt the first violinist could judge the balance from where she's sitting. Maybe her opinion is based upon listening to the recording of their rehearsal.
    7) I'm always amazed when actors and crew can deliver a long single-take scene, and there were many in this film.
     
  8. RSteven

    RSteven Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookings, Oregon
    Thanks for posting that terrific video.

    It is a damn shame to me that that the incredible dedication of Austin Butler in Elvis and Cate Planchett in TÁR were not winners in the Best Actor categories at this year's Oscars. They were the two very best acting performance by a long shot in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2023
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  9. NightGoatToCairo

    NightGoatToCairo Forum Resident

    Location:
    .
    Why is the Blu-ray almost £20.00 in the UK?
     
  10. Djmover

    Djmover Forum Resident

    Typical Oscar bait that serves to only entertain the pretentious elite while the rest of us run a mile from garbage like this and straight into a cinema showing Top Gun Maverick.
    Go Tom .
     
  11. NightGoatToCairo

    NightGoatToCairo Forum Resident

    Location:
    .
    What aspects of the film did you not understand?
     
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  12. Liam Brown

    Liam Brown Forum Resident

    The world isn't as simple as you think it is. It isn't a binary choice between movies you have to engage your brain for and action movies. Many people are able to enjoy both. So perhaps the problem is more personal than general, in your case.
     
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  13. smilin ed

    smilin ed Senior Member

    Location:
    Durham
    Many. Maybe even most. But not all.
     
  14. Djmover

    Djmover Forum Resident

    Lol how predictable.
    You were doing so well but you just couldn’t help yourself by going personal at the end .

    Says everything about you and the pretentious jerks that think films like this are important.

    Heads up they are not and will be forgotten very quickly as the next lot of Oscar is just round the corner .
     
  15. George Blair

    George Blair Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I forgot about Top Gun already... But it's not important.
     
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  16. Liam Brown

    Liam Brown Forum Resident

    I never said I thought Tar was important. Its just an interesting film I enjoyed watching for a couple hours and never thought about much after. It was entertaining. People can be entertained in a variety of ways, just because you aren't entertained by a film doesn't mean the people who enjoyed it are pretentious assholes. Why do you even care what other people like?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2023
  17. Djmover

    Djmover Forum Resident

    I don’t care at all actually but films like this are celebrated and heralded by the usual people but in the real world just like most Oscar bait they are financial flops .

    It’s an insult that Top Gun Maverick only received one Oscar nomination for best sound (I think ) which is a total joke .

    At least Steven Spielberg had the good grace at a previous awards ceremony to go up to
    Tom Cruise and say thank you for saving cinema .

    Something no one will ever say about elitist garbage like Tar .
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2023
  18. Liam Brown

    Liam Brown Forum Resident

    I don't relate in any way to the way you interact with movies, i don't care about the Oscars at all, nothing that happens there affects me in any way. I don't think claiming there is a" real world" that somehow corresponds exactly to the way you view the world makes much sense. good luck with that kind of thinking.
     
  19. George Blair

    George Blair Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Now why do you think the elitist director would thank the elitist actor for saving cinema? The answer is in your post: A movie has to be a financial success to be any good, apparently.
     
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  20. GMfan87'

    GMfan87' Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT.
    I just got around to seeing this , and I thought it was very interesting , her performance was outstanding. It's hard to believe the performance in Everything, Everywhere, All At Once was better than this.
    I liked getting a peek in to the classical, and conductor's world, knew little about it, so not sure how true to life this was.
    Is the general consensus that once she gets injured it's all a dream?
    I didn't think so, although I could see how some of this could be her imagination,she couldn't sleep and was hearing noises, etc.
    I didn't feel the ending didn't happen, your thoughts?
     
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  21. Ando II

    Ando II explorer

    Location:
    Trenton, NJ
    [​IMG]
    No Tár in these parts!
     
  22. Post-Punk Monk

    Post-Punk Monk Seeking divinity in records from '78-'85 or so…

    Location:
    North Carolina
    That's because it wasn't.
     
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  23. Rotary Connection

    Rotary Connection Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago
    It's good to know that old people are just as stupid and clickbaity as young people on youtube, I guess
     
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  24. wolfram

    wolfram Slave to the rhythm

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    So this guy takes 11 minutes to make just one point, which is that "Tár" is too long? How meta.
     
  25. wolfram

    wolfram Slave to the rhythm

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    I didn't think it was supposed to be a dream, but that everything, including the end, actually happened to her. The noises she heard seemed to point to her growing paranoia and loss of control. At least that's how I understood it.
     

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