Tavish Adagio, Parasound JC3+, JC3 Jr or something else in the $1.5K - $3K

speakers

 

Earlier in this thread I said I had a hiss from the JC3+ if I twist the volume knob to a real loud position with no music playing. I also said I had always had a hiss from the headphone jack of the Denon.

With the Parasound Halo the JC3+ hiss was still there. However, this weekend I swapped my old Monster interconnects for Audioquest RCA from PLX-1000 to JC3+ and Audioquest balanced from the JC3+ to the Halo and the hiss now only appears if I twist the volume knob very much, over the 12 o'clock position (I could never reach 9 o'clock with music playing otherwise I'll surely have some serious ear damage). So it's there but not an issue at all.

The headphone jack from the Halo is silent. No hiss like the Denon. Moreover, as I said above, the volume is much lower. I can smoothly and infinitely increase it from total silent to the volume I want with no jumps whatsoever. So apart from the evident better sound quality, the Halo solved my headphone problems with the same cartridge/phono stage gain. Also, it is perfectly driving the B&W 702 s2 I'm testing now.

I tell you, believe me: 2M Black > PLX-1000 > JC3+ > Halo > 702 S2 and my system sounds fantastic. Even digital from the Halo's DAC sounds wonderful, so I ordered a Chromecast Audio to send files wirelessly to the Halo through WiFi.

I'll talk to the speakers' dealer tomorrow to see if I can have some discount because I really want to buy the whole package (cables and 702 S2). I can't go back now, music sounds simply splendid.

 

Today I decided to add my name to the waiting list for a Tavish Design Adagio phono preamp. I did so after Scott Reynolds of Tavish confirmed that many of their customers use a SUT and load plugs in advance of the MM portion of the Adagio to allow two MC cartridges to be used. I decided to buy an Adagio because it is well reviewed, allows two turntables/tonearms and has the loading controls on the front. 12 to 14 weeks is a fairly long wait period but it gives me time to figure out how to build a SUT using the same Jensen transformer that is in the Adagio.

 

This should help get you started: DIY "Jensen 44" MC Step-up Transformer | 10 Audio

 

Congrats on the decision!

How many weeks were you quoted for delivery??

 

Thanks for the link! I've used load plugs in the past to fine tune loading and could do that with an outboard SUT but I may try to wire a place inside the SUT case after the transformers that can accept a variety of resistors and therefore cartridge loads. More research is needed as I have no idea how to make this work, I just know the results I want.

Thanks! This qualifies as a big purchase for me and hopefully takes the vinyl part of my system up a noticeable notch. 12 - 14 weeks is the current wait time. I hear a Tom Petty song lyric...

 

12-14 weeks

 

Looking at thishttp://www.herronaudio.com/vtph2specs.html as well as a K&K

 

The Herron looks really nice but is outside my price range however I like the idea of adding jacks for load plugs. I may be able to do that on a Jensen-based SUT. Hmmmmm.

 

Back to the gain thing.

Maybe being an old timer, John Curl used this formula to set the 48dB gain for MM input in the JC3+:

Rethinking Phono Preamp Gain Settings

This formula seems to be around since the 70's. If you use it, gain for a MM with 5mV output would be 46dB. More than 46dB for 3mV, so 48dB would be a great average gain for general MM carts, that usually have around 3-5mV output. The numbers are much higher than what the KAB calculator suggests.

Surely is weird to think that Mr. Curl would design a phono stage that wouldn't work with most MM cartridges in the market as @Helom have noted.

I haven't noticed sound degradation with the 2M Black + JC3+, but the system with the B&W 704 S2 definitely sounded like some people describe too much gain: harsh treble and less dynamic. With the 702 S2 it's not harsh and very dynamic, sounds really good. I'm not an expert but I speculate that higher gain would demand capable amp and speakers, and that would be a good reason to set the JC3 Jr to 40dB, supposing the Jr, being half the price, would maybe be paired with a lesser capable system. However, if your system is up to the task, the Jr gives you a 50dB set too.

 

I got mine in about 6 weeks (last July). Dang, the wait list must have really increased since then. And I heard that Scott the owner is in the process of taking on another employee besides his son to try and keep up.

 

Some people recommend leaving phono stages on 24/7 and some phono stages don't even have a power switch. Is this the reason why JC3 has a stand by mode? Leaving it in stand by mode would be similar to leaving it on 24/7 for better performance?

 

46db is what the formula recommends for 5mv but this is much higher than typical formulas (e.g. the KAB formula) which would specify 36db as ideal.
which gain sounds best is determined by system interaction and can be different for cartridges with the same output voltage.
my 2M black sounded highly strained and stressed at 46db and much better (but lacking dynamics) at 36db.
I also have (2) LOMC carts with .5mv gain and one sounds great at 66db gain, the other sounds too strained at 66db and best at 56db. The point is that optimizing the sound of a given cartridge might require some flexibility in gain, something that not many preamps provide.

 

Looks like my Adagio is nearly ready to ship - I am currently exchanging with Scott about 12AX7 / ECC83 versus 5751 tubes (the Adagio uses three of these, plus three others). Any thoughts welcomed on that front.

Funny thing - my Adagio was actually ready a few weeks ago, right at the 12 week mark as originally planned. Scott sent me a couple of emails to notify me that completion was near, and for some reason my over-officious Outlook Spam filter put his messages into the Junk Folder and I did not see them until a couple of weeks later!!! So when he did not hear back from me, he went to the next one on the list, and they got the Adagio tabbed for me!!

When I contacted Scott and notified him what happened, he re-inserted me into the next up slot on the waiting list, and now near completion. Honestly having mixed emotions now that the time is near, I am sure some can relate.

 

I'm looking forward to your impressions of the Adagio. I've only owned three tube components and to be honest I'm not very knowledgeable about the advantages and disadvantages of various tube types. I imagine you'd want a quiet tube, with long life that sounded good in your system. How do those tube types, 12AX7 vs 5751 compare in those categories? Between various makers both new and NOS? I think I'd take Scott's recommendation due to all the variables and it is his design.

 

I have actually changed out all the stock tubes in my Adagio! The stock tubes are good though, but finding quality replacements can result in further improvements to the sound.

Here are two of the three 12AX7 tubes I now use in the 5751 positions -- Tesla 'frame-grid' E83CC. These replaced three Telefunken 12AX7 tubes that were borrowed from the front end of a circa 1959 HH Scott 299 integrated amp, and these were wonderful too, but I prefer the Teslas after much comparison.



The 12AU7 position now has a Pinnacle 13D5A tube, which was clearly better than many other vintage 12AU7 tubes I tried including an Amperex 'Bugle Boy' which was pretty good itself.

The EF86 tubes I replaced with a rare pair of Tesla EF806s tubes, supposedly a special version of the EF86 made back in the 70s. And special they are! Those two tubes made a real difference, mostly in detail retrieval.

These are all rare tubes, I consider myself lucky to have found them after much research. Kinda pricey too (about $75 each for the 12AX7s, about $25 for the Pinnacle 13D5A, and about $75 each for the EF806s) but hey it's my hobby!

 

Good grief.

 

Which tubes would you recommend changing first? Or does it take a full change out to realize the improvements you've noticed?

 

Each tube change as listed seemed to make an improvement (several I tried though were worse than the stock tubes!). I think the Pinnacle 13D5A (or your choice of other 12AU7 types) would be a good choice to start if you want to jump right in to rolling. Listen to the stock for a while though, to get a handle on the sound.

Pinnacle 13D5A - M. Pairs MINT NOS Industrial Grade ECC82 12AU7 - Factory Aged and Tested - Toshiba Source

 

The tubes I mentioned WERE Scott's recommendation - if you read his website, you'll see he typically puts JJ 5751 (three of the six) in his stage, but has the optional 12AX7 that he sometimes uses. I was trying to get his thoughts on what he offers... I am not wasting Scott's valuable time debating other tube types...

It's been over 30 years since I've owned a tube component, so I can relate. Scott's Adagio would have been my first one since then, but a Lounge LCR Tube showed up on my doorstep a couple of days ago.

Again, those ARE the tubes Scott uses in his design - and yes, there are many opinions when it comes to tubes, but I will trust Scott's experience over mine on this front any day. I may tinker with the tubes down the road (or not) but I have the feeling what he delivers is going to be pretty good.

To answer your questions - Scott thinks they are pretty quiet...

 

During my research into various 12AU7 and related tube types I came across good reviews of this (2nd or 3rd?) cousin of the 12AU7 tube -- the E80CC, supposedly an alternate and drop-in replacement for the typical 12AU7. Most of this information came from users of the "Tubes Asylum" website. So of course I had to order one to see.

Well I didn't like it! The sound seemed bloated, kind of disjointed, something just not right. Not to mention the tube stands at least a half inch taller than a 12AU7, and to use it the cover must be kept off (which I do anyway, no cats or kids to electrocute themselves accidentally around here these days).



When I emailed to Scott (during my tube rolling experiments with this preamp) my great results with the Pinnacle 13D5A tube in the 12AU7 position, he said he was currently using an E80CC tube there! The current draw with this E80CC tube is about twice what a typical 12AU7 draws, but he said it was okay in this application (I've read where some amps have been damaged substituting the E80CC for a 12AU7).

I've been thinking of trying it once again, just to be sure, even though I thought I was through with tube rolling and now just into enjoying...

 

So I am really curious, what are your thoughts on the LCR Tube?

 

I apologize if my reply could be interpreted to imply you were wasting Scott's time; that is certainly not what I intended. Also, I did not recall the discussion on the Tavish website regarding alternate tubes so thank you for mentioning that. My point, which apparently I wasn't very articulate in expressing, was I don't have enough knowledge about the amazing variety new and NOS versions of any single type of tube, let alone all of their compatible alternatives, to make a choice on changing out the tubes selected by the designer. It is terrific that Scott will offer his thoughts on alternate tubes that work in his design and I may seek out his advice. Enjoy your new Adagio!

 

All good.... you didn't imply it, I just said it for my own edification. Sorry for my misplaced statement, and apologies in return!

I realized you probably were not aware of the tube discussion and why I pointed it out. There is so much info out there on everything, it is easy to miss one thing. LIke you, I am not an expert on tube types (not even close), so I have to rely on the word of other more experienced folks.

You should give Scott a call or an email and exchange with him on the topic, he is very patient and willing to educate. Tubes and the subsequent hunt can be a long, arduous process - even risky - especially if you go down the NOS road. There are undoubtedly a lot of great NOS tubes out there, but of course there is risk since they are old tubes. Maybe start a thread on the topic? There are a lot of great resources here on the Hoff when it comes to tubes.

 

Thanks, the last few posts on your experiences may come in handy some day when I get around to experimenting!