Tavish Adagio, Parasound JC3+, JC3 Jr or something else in the $1.5K - $3K

My general definition is when everything is set up, and you have the volume at any level you'd consider listenable, how load is the hum, hiss, white noise, etc. This is assuming you're not getting feedback from something.

My previous phono was fairly quite. At my normal listening level you didn't really notice it from the seat unless you listened for it, but it was noticeable near the speakers. With my current system is so quiet that it's much closer to digital. If I have the volume loud enough that I can hear the phono (or any sound) before the record plays, the listening volume will be very uncomfortably loud. And at normal listening you would only hear something if your ear was within 10ish inches of the speaker.

 

Thanks... at what levels DOES the noise start to become audible in the listening position? I ask, because for my stages, I can compare as an example Stage A as "quieter" than Stage B because Stage A is audible at the 52 Db level whereas Stage B kicks in at 46 Db. Most every stage I ever owned was quiet at the casual listening level.

On your previous stage, white noise is not a good thing at the listening volume, and that I would characterize as a noisy stage. Plus, you mentioned "rear speakers" --- are you running a 2 channel system for vinyl, or are you running 4 or five speakers??? Just curious.

I always take the "compared to what" approach --- I am just trying to fully understand the JC3 Jr "compared to what" with your experiences --- in other words, not just that it is quiet at listening levels (most stages are) but how does it COMPARE with other stages with noise level as you turn up the volume, where does it kick in, does it hum as you go up the chain.... (the hum being a big thing - sometimes a stage might be quiet at low listening volumes, but when you get up to a little higher level, the hum kicks in --- if you hear it with nothing playing chances are good its there WITH something playing and it is affecting SQ).

I always have about six questions that come to mind when someone says a stage is "quiet" - can you tell? And usually many have different definitions of what they actually mean if asked to clarify.

Thanks again, you are clearly another happy camper with the JC3 Jr.

 

I am accountable for my posts, and I'm not getting emotional, either. I made a prediction - you ask for proof?! What proof can I give you? Predicting future is a business with few guarantees. I made mine based on knowledge that the business is successful, and successful businesses rarely just decide to fold, do they?

Come to think of it - what reasonable hope do you have of any manufacturer still being in business down the road? Do you own any Oppo products, Thiel, Classe, Arcam? - To name just a few that have announced pending non-existence within the last year alone. Whatever you choose to buy - there's always a risk the company isn't going to be there when you need them. After all, it's not a warship you're buying, that has an expected life-span of a minimum of 30 years, it's a phono stage, and it's priced slighly below a warship, with no need to worry so much. However, if you think that the predicted lifespan of the manufacturer is an important factor - this is where we differ in our philosophies. Had I known that from the beginning - I would have kept mum on the topic, honestly.

I wish you best of luck with whatever it is you choose to buy. Happy listening.

 

Cool thanks for clarifying! Well put. No worries, no hard feelings.... a wise person I know once said "I make friends and enemies. Some enemies become friends later, and vice versa" Words to live by for me...

Thanks for all your inputs in the thread earlier too, they were more than helpful --- I hope you feel free to offer more in the thread if you see something that is missed!

 

I think you're mixing up my post with someone elses. No JC3 Jr. here. No mention of rear speakers either. Just 2 stereo with a sub.
I was commenting on how I judge quiet in a phono. The iPhono2 had a very small amount of white noise as mentioned, and the noise raised with the volume. I normally listen at upper 60- lower 70db. The white noise from the stage was something most guest never noticed, but once you heard it you couldn't unhear it. If I upped the volume to mid 80s db it was very noticeable. My current Sutherland 20/20 has zero noise at all. I would need to go past way past 85db to hear it at all. It truly gets out of the way. It's been a very satisfying upgrade on many fronts.

 

Yes I did mix your post up with Olias's earlier... but thanks for sharing.

On a side note - it goes to show these Db numbers are all relative -- my listening level right now on my system with the Denon 7200 as the driver (I have a Parasound P5 on the way for 2 channel) is about 25db to 30db. I always adjust the scale to the 0-100, I just like it that way. If I turned my volume up to 60-70Db range on my system I would have big problems!

Whenever I read the comments about a stage being "quiet" I really don't know what that means unless the user explains. I have heard previous posts on other threads that the iPhono2 was very quiet and there was very little white noise even at high volumes... but good to hear about the 20/20.

I am going to take a closer look at the 20/20 --- I bet nobody has ever had the chance to side by side that with the JC3+ given how new to the market it is.

 

One question - so when I went out to take a look at the 20/20, I immediately read about the separate power supply on the Sutherland website. But there were no pics of the power supply... opened the manual too, nothing. Went to the Stereophile review, Musicdirect, even opened the YouTube where I think Ron is talking about it and again no pic of the power supply? I clicked a couple more links and still nada.

Who has a pic of the 20/20 power supply, especially with the lid off?

 

So to further clarify, when you say 25-30db, is that the level the display on your amp says, or a measured level form your seated position? When I say upper 60s to lower 70s, I'm talking about the measured average db from the seated position. 25db measured in that position is literally whisper quiet.

 

It's what my amp display says, of course.... in real Db terms my numbers make absolutely no sense.

I know, lame....

You got a pic of the 20/20 PS??

EDIT - any 20/20 owner - I am having a senior moment, on all the sites I look at pics of the 20/20, they are all the same pics ------ and I am having trouble understanding how the main unit gets power? On the back, there are the In / Out RCA jacks, and a grounding post. It talks about TWO power supplies for each channel, but where are the pics of them, where do they plug into the unit, etc?

What am I missing? I have looked on then different sites and not seeing it... it is pretty much all the same pics from the Sutherland site.

 

So the power supply is not inside of the unit. It is actually two separate power supplies, one for each side. It looks very similar to the power supply of a laptop computer. It requires two plugs, two power bricks, and two cords, each one connecting to one side of the unit. The two boards are only connected by the front and the rear plates. They operate 100% independently. I don't have a picture of the power supplies on my phone, but I can probably add them this evening. You might also want to see if you can find expired eBay or audiogon listings. Most people show the power supplies in those photos. The power supply plugs in on the inner side near the capacitors on each board.

 

Found one. Notice the power cords actually come in through the bottom of the unit, and plug-in closer to the front faceplate.

 

Yes, that much I knew from the description.

OK that helps - I don't see where the plug holes are on the main unit - but will go out to Ebay or Audiogon now to go look.

At first blush, I am luke warm about it being "laptop like" bricks... but keeping an open mind.

Thanks!!!!!

 

We crossed posts with your pic. Thanks again. I was out on Ebay, and STILL haven't found a pic of the power supplies. Seems to be a well kept secret!!!

Even from your pic I still don't understand where the power jacks are on the main stage? Do those cords plug UNDERNEATH the unit? All the pics of the back, I don't see two small holes for the small power jack connector.

 

Sutherland actually says that the external power bricks were part of the design as far as meeting the brief for where this unit falls within the line. KC Vibe, external power supply, one board. Insight, one board, with dual monitor layout, single power supply internal. 20/20 dual mono boards, dual mono power supply, external power supplies.
You have to go up to the Duo to get true dual mono boards, with internal power supplies.

 

I actually prefer power supplies external, for example analagous to the Vincent Pho 8, Adagio, etc. When that is done, the designer can focus on putting "beef" into the power supply, including torodial transformers --- then not have to worry about isolation for noise on the main unit. Just my preference... but not a requirement.

There's nothing wrong with laptop type bricks - but for me it is asethetics, and again not as beefy as something in a metal case with a nice torodial transformer.

The more I look at the Adagio - TWO inputs for both MM, MC.... all the loading on the front of the unit (dials).... separate power supply..... even balanced ins / outs..... and a power switch to boot on the front (which of course is almost a requirement being tube).... it really covers all the bases, I just hope without compromise. I cannot say enough how nice having MM / MC in one unit with a switch on the front is ideal for my needs...

 

Yeah, I totally get that. You've got to find something that works for your needs and your preferences. I don't love the laptop power bricks either. And if I could change the jumpers to externally accessible dip switches without effecting the sound that would be cool too. But all I know is I do love the way the 20/20 sounds. At the price point, the design choices they made make sense to me and fit my needs well. I had no problem giving up externally accessible settings to get the sound they got at the price point. I'm not changing carts nearly enough for it to matter. Not saying it's the end all be all of the under $3K phonostage. I don't think it's possible to meet that brief. But I think it sounds great and has plenty of room to grow with my system for anything I'd realistically end up with down the line.

 

I don't have much to contribute to the conversation but will state that the seller I bought the Chinook from stated to me that he sold it because he got an Adagio and much preferred it. Also said it is extremely quiet. He called the change from the Chinook to the Adagio an upgrade in every way.

 

The stock tubes in mine were JJ Tesla 5751 (3) and 12AU7 (1), and Electro Harmonix EF86 (2).

My first tube rolling experiment was the 12AU7 position. I rolled in vintage tubes from Telefunken, Mazda, Tesla, and finally an Amperex Bugle Boy, each of which was somewhat better than the stock in smoothness, detail retrieval, imaging, response at the frequency extremes -- the stuff we look for in a tube upgrade. But then as I was reading posts here on "favorite 12au7" one from member Triple asked about a 12au7 equivalent that was new to him -- the 13D5A type. It was new to me too, so of course I had to find a supplier and try one out! Now that tube is the real deal! By itself it sharpened imaging, improved the realism of the entire frequency range, and made the bass deeper and more powerful yet tuneful. It stays.

About that same time period I also had three vintage Telefunken 12AX7 tubes I 'borrowed' from my vintage HH Scott 299 integrated amplifier from 1959. I replaced the stock JJ Tesla 5751s with these, and the sound livened up in the midrange and the realism that makes these vintage tubes sought after. I also contacted Brent Jessee and got some vintage Telefunken EF86 tubes to replace the stock Electro Harmonix ones. Another noticeable improvement in realism and detail retrieval.

And yet even at that point I kept on researching variants and possible replacements for what I had. I learned about the 'premium' version of the EF86 tube made by Telefunken in the '60s designated the EF806s. Wow that one is unobtainium now but I also learned that Tesla of Czechoslovakia was the only other company offering a tube of that designation (EF806s) in the '60s and '70s, and that they were slightly more 'obtainable'. Sure enough I found several sellers on eBay selling genuine (apparently) NOS Tesla EF806s tubes. So I took a risk -- they were around the $80/per tube. The risk paid off, as the tubes were exactly as advertised. And I must say as much a difference as the 13D5A tube made in the 12au7 position, these specialty EF86 upgrades really made a difference! It was as if they were just digging out the detail hidden in the grooves. Now all kinds of faint, very subtle details way in the background or back in the studio were now audible! Just what thrills me when playing familiar records I've known by heart over the years. I thought then "These tubes are staying IN!"

And lastly on researching 12AX7 variants (Tavish designates that 12AX7s can be substituted for the 5751s), I read about the fabled "frame grid" 12AX7 models from Telefunken, now rare as hen's teeth and expensive as heck if you can find them. However once again I learned that Tesla (not the new production company with JJ prefix) manufactured some in the '70s into the '90s that copied the internal "frame grid" support that distinguished this rare type. Once again on eBay I found some sellers of this tube overseas, and took the risk. It paid off as the tubes were once again just as advertised once I finally got them. They replaced the 1959 Telefunkens I had in there, but the improvement this time was not so clear cut. More like a sideways move -- the midrange was slightly more recessed, but the frequency response across the board is now smooth and very extended with very powerful and tuneful bass.

So this is where it stands with the tubes. I think I'm through upgrading things now and just enjoying (!) the music.

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation! I'm on the waitlist for an Adagio. I find the prospects of tube-rolling both scary and exciting, lol.

 

Strat - sounds like you need to try the Adagio too then --- heck, you have tried everything else, why be incomplete??

I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on it... but you would have to wait 12 weeks like the rest of us....

... at this point, I may buy it regardless, I am intrigued. And after talking and exchanging with Scott, I am confident and respect his background and knowledge.

I would STILL love to hear what Robert at Lounge is up to - I talked to him a few months back and know he was designing a tube preamp, testing it... then that was it. I don't know any of the specifics. I suspect he is going to have something one of these days too... and being a happy Lounge owner I am really interested.

 

A brand new JC3+ showed up around here. More expensive than the stock price but not so much. Hmmmm

 

So I read your post twice now... what are you saying? Can you elaborate a bit, I don't follow...

 

Good stuff @Otlset ....

 

It's really very good just with the stock tubes. And I bet with the stock tubes, if allowed to break in (which I didn't -- I know what NOS and vintage tubes can do so right off I start rolling ) the unit would sound really nice.

 

Oh, I think you might be confusing me with @mike catucci who almost did try everything under the sun. Haha!

As for me, I've only tried 4 preamps ; an onboard one for the VPI Nomad 2, Dynavector P75 MK3, Lehmann Decade, and Manley Chinook. The Decade has been the best one out of all 4, hands down.

I'd like to try the Adagio but it would cost me an arm and a leg to bring it over here and there's no telling what would happen. If I didn't bond with it, I'd be taking a major bath on it due to taxes and the conversion rate alone.