Technicians' extreme praticality.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by SKATTERBRANE, Apr 17, 2019.

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  1. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    I have never met or known an electronics repair technician that DIDN'T think all amps, CD players, interconnects, speaker wire, basically every component other than transducers (speakers and phono cartridges) sounds the same. If it measures the same (and what I mean by "measures" is the limited measurements that have been around since the dawn of the electron) it sounds the same is their religion.

    The put no credence in types or qualities of capacitors, resistors, different tubes etc, other than the values and tolerance specs. Sure they will say that some are more durable than others, but they all sound the same if they measure the same.

    Other than hobbyists and people who make a living on modifying components, have you ever met or known a electronics repair technician who believes or thinks interconnects, capacitors, or two amps with the same specs and measurements can sound different from each other?
     
  2. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    I carried a tool bag for over 20 years as a tech and while a cable skeptic i think every amp i have owned had a slightly different presentation. Though i doubt most of the masses would know or care.
     
    krisbee, Dave, timind and 3 others like this.
  3. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Components dont measure the same, so this is a strawman argument.
     
  4. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Well I was mostly referring to caps and resistors, but I gave the components the benefit of the doubt there. It matters not, it does not change my experience with most technician's opinion and attitude on the matter. Of course I never met one that gave a damned about being an audiophile and they had little patience for them in general.
     
  5. VU Master

    VU Master Senior Member

    On the Gearslutz and GroupDIY forums that I and a lot of pro audio techs visit, there are frequent lengthy and discussions about sonic qualities of capacitors, resistors, tubes, opamps, etc. Very few (maybe zero) techs would claim that all amps sound the same.
     
    zombiemodernist likes this.
  6. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Good to know. I have not met one in person yet. I am sure the forums have techs in both camps.
     
  7. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    They can't even agree on how to fail the same. Some capacitors age with the value going up instead of down, some climb in ESR while others become a dead short or wide open, some ooze goop out the bottom while others push the end caps out or burst the top.
     
    timind likes this.
  8. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    When I say components, I´m referring to normal passive or active components that e.g. an amp is built from, or a DAC. It´s these data and lay-0ut of design that will, in the end, form the sound. The sound isn´t formed by some mystic ingredient.

    Very few can measure and/or understand how the data will influence the sound; that is the reason I called the premise a strawman.
     
  9. zombiemodernist

    zombiemodernist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeastern USA
    When I got my restored vintage Pioneer, the repair tech spoke at length about the design, restoration and subjective sound qualities of all the amplifiers, turntables, speakers etc that he had in his shop. It was clear to me that he was much more informed on the subject than I could ever hope to be, and had a strong set of technical and subjective (audiophile) perspectives on everything.

    Maybe you're just going to the wrong techs, who just specialize in the wrong areas for your needs. This guy specialized in audio and audio production gear, so it really wasn't a shocker that he was an expert with strong opinions in the field.
     
  10. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    It's always them. And it's always a generalization.

    This thread - insulting and ignorant as it is - isn't worth the effort of an earnest answer. Meanwhile, in the music forum, we have a thread where it's posited that only men enjoy jazz because the OP can't think of any women who like it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
    Doctor Fine likes this.
  11. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    There's a guy on the west side of Indy who specializes in guitar amps, and home audio repair who doesn't fit you description. I've had a couple lengthy conversations with him, most recently concerning vintage tube amps. He had definite opinions on which manufacture's transformers were quality vs crap. He also talked about changing coupling caps to get different sound qualities.
     
  12. ggergm

    ggergm another spring another baseball season

    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vince Galbo is currently the National Sales Manager for MSB Technology, a highly regarded analog to digital converter company.

    In the past, Vince owned his own service shop. Along with being a MSB tech, he was the premier US technician for Plinius, a New Zealand amplifier company. Their 8200 and 9200 integrated amps were considered some of the best sounding amps in their day, which was 10-20 years ago. I own a 9200. Talking to Vince, he convinced me to do a full upgrade on my amp, replacing mostly capacitors, but some other components, too, with both fresher and better performing parts. When I got back my amp, I was amazed how much better it sounded. Always know for a very liquid and warm midbass, my 9200 amp's high end became much quicker and more musical. I have no use for the amp anymore but am reluctant to part with it because it sounds so good. It's a wonderful spare.

    So, @SKATTERBRANE, here is one technician, Vince Galbo, who's successful in the industry and thinks capacitors and other components have their own sound. I could give you other examples (here's one that's a little long but is about an attenuator I built and the sound quality of resistors) but your basic premise is incorrect.
     
  13. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    One of the issues with being a consumer is that we RARELY get the full set of measurements that the engineers that designed the product have. We get a limited set of specs, which don't tell us the full story. With more info you can tell more about how something is going to sound. The other issue is that even if we did get the full battery of bench tests conducted by the manufacturer, we may lack the knowledge to properly interpret them. Most of us are not engineers.

    Besides other things mentioned here, I know of at least one engineer/designer that is very serious about measurements and measures his equipment with tens of thousands of dollars of audio analyzer hardware. That person has also written about how certain components (resistors, capacitors, op-amps) can "change" over time. I'm not talking "burn in" but rather changes that could occur a year or more after the component has been in service. Too long to get into here and well outside my area but the gist was that certain components are more durable and stable than others and that is something that can be measured and tested.

    In sum I think what OP is saying is a bit of an oversimplification and paints with too broad a brush. On the other side of the coin there is a lot of snake oil out there in the hi-fi world, and many engineers tend to have more objectivist point of view rather than the subjectivism that dominates the hobby today.
     
  14. GreenDrazi

    GreenDrazi Truth is beauty

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I don't understand the point of this thread. Why single out "electronics repair technician" in a music forum? Do you need a strawman?
     
  15. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    I agree, except I would say consumer never have access to measurements, and IF they did, there would be no possible way to interpret them into sound.
     
  16. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine "So Hip It Would Blister Your Brain"

    All my techs at Harvey in Manhattan (where I worked for years) were "into" high performance design and parts.
    Many were audio nerds.
    So were the guys at Sony Music Studios on W54th in Manhattan where the entire building ran on Bryston amplifiers (NOT Sony---ha ha) with mastering rooms to die for.
    I don't get where this thread is coming from.
    Techs that I have met all know a LOT about why certain parts quality matter to the sound..
    Most were drawn to the industry because they LISTEN to music.
    So of course they can HEAR the differences.
     
  17. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Unfortunately most audio techs began as an offshoot of a TV business so they may or may not care about the little details. The thing about electronics (especially the old school stuff) is that you can look at a circuit and see what it is supposed to do, but it is not obvious to tell how it is supposed to sound. As for capacitors, they are a major failure point in most electronics. The oil in electrolytic changes of leaks over the years and the values change. I know back in the 80's we got a huge batch that were not sealed properly and when the boards were washed after stuffing, the degreaser used began to break down the caps immediately and we had a failure rate of 100% - but only after a few months in the field. We also had a board stuffer install a ton of tantalums backwards and that was pretty exciting for us field techs for awhile.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  18. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    Yes, I agree with OP, most techs are that way in their thinking. Luckily, it's not all.
     
  19. Maltman

    Maltman Somewhat grumpy, but harmless old man.

    Location:
    Vancouver Canada
    The tech guy I know has very big ears and is able to hear the most subtle nuances that my little ears have no hope of hearing. The OP is only referring to techs he has known. I think many of us have had much different experiences.
     
  20. acdc7369

    acdc7369 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I am an electronics repair technician who doesn’t think they all sound the same. Nice to meet you
     
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