I feel like I should repeat again in this thread to balance things out..... My friends’ LP12 Anniversary sounds every bit as enjoyable in an all Linn system (~$300k+) compared to my SL1200G in a bespoke ($~80k) system. The owner graciously prefers the sound in my house only because I have an ‘audiophile’ setup in a dedicated/treated room as opposed to his off-the-shelf Linn offering in a standard sitting room - I have imaging & soundstage, he does not. He upgrades whenever Linn offer something new, top-of-the-line and in spite of domestic compromises, this is very vey good. I would go so far as to say that with room treatment and dedicated seating this could easily be the best sounding setup I have ever heard. In my opinion, the LP12 Anniversary is as good as any turntable out there & well beyond most. This quote from 5-String sums up my own experience though, I’ve owned both Clearaudio & Linn (these are just preferences, not ‘better than’)...
I think the discussion here shows some light on the reasons behind arm removal and the crummy engineering of past (and maybe current) Linn product. Information from an ex Linn salesman of 30 years here. He does know his stuff based on real experience behind the scenes - not the spin customers get. https://hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=49604&sid=82c33644c676257897f5940bf8089e05&start=40
I own a new Technics SL-1210GR which is about as easy a setup and no maintenance TT as you can get so reading this thread the LS LP12 TT's really sound like a pain in the **** to setup and maintain. I would love to hear a proper setup to see why fans put up with such a finicky piece of equipment but they must sound amazing as those who have them properly setup seem to rave about them.
I would just like to question the myth of a LP12 being a pain in the **** to set and maintain. Whilst this is undoubtedly true for the first few years, this hasn't been the case for a very long time, and the reputation goes back 30 plus years! Most of the issues were engineered out years ago. Being extremely conservative as with a little experience and the correct tools you could add many years on to this, any LP12 manufactured in the last 25 years should be easy to set up and maintain. It will have the extra bolt near the motor and the Cirkus as standard. Many older ones without the glued subchassis 1984 onwards and the ground springs and harder grommets from 1989 and 1990 together with correct use of T bar bolt straightener can be made to perform better, and eradicate most of the problems. In most cases people are making a big deal about something that hasn't existed for a generation..... Preference in sound? To each their own - there are many happy Linn owners and many happy Technics and owners of other makes of turntable. I haven't heard a SL1200 for almost a generation, but manufacturers can make big improvements in that time! Personally I think it fantastic that a company like Technics make a turntable that is allowing more people to enjoy better sound and probably making it far easier for them to access and appreciate more complex music.
I have a question as I have always been intrigued by the LP 12. If your house settles as houses do and your turntable is out of level, how does this effect setup. Because I mean some houses move a bit more than others. Does this mean constant fiddling? I was really put off by the ongoing tuning issues when I originally was looking at the Sondek.
i think that is a valid question. I was reading Linn setup guide by Cymbiosis and I have to say its pretty involved. How much does a tune up cost anyway?
Any table needs to be level. If you house settles so much that your table and stand are no longer level, re-level them. This is a turntable issue - not an LP12. Judd
The dealer does the initial tune and set-up for free. The modern LP12 should not need another tune unless you REALLY go bonkers with it somehow. When fitting any new Linn upgrade, my dealer re-tunes it (if necessary) as part of the upgrade (ie., at no additional cost). He quoted me $150 to change out the plinth and do a retune (changing out plinth is a HUGE job, and NOT an “upgrade” - just change in color). That’s very cheap. Judd
Exactly, there are plenty of turntables both Linn and non-Linn that could possibly perform better still with levelling. Edit. And not having a jig where you can level the plinth and hence get the bolts perpendicular, possibly with the help of the T bar, makes life very hard. Like any job, without correct tools an easy procedure becomes difficult, if not impossible for achieving optimum performance.
Jigs are not essential for levelling and would amount to quite an expense if someone is looking for just plug and play. The requirement for levelling is to have access to underneath the deck to adjust the springs. This can be achieved easily using some of the relatively cheap workbenches that are available. I have used my workbench for a number of decks in my collection including a couple of Technics direct drives (not SL1200/1210) in my TT collection where the automatic functions were playing up and I needed to see what was going on from underneath. In my view the DDs are much less likely to have a levelling issue as long as placed on a level service but older decks can have other issues. All of my sprung suspended turntables that I purchased second hand required attention to levelling but all remained stable once completed. With reference to the quality of Linn arms I have done some research and in particular went over to Audio Origami to see what Johnny had to say as I suspect that even Dave (dsjr) would defer to him and conveniently Dave even participates in this thread. PU7 bearings vs. Linn Ekos SE bearings? Johnny infers that the Linn bearings in Ekos and Ittok are good enough. Interestingly he then says that the bearings may eventually have issues compared with his own PU7 arm though not whether this is down to mishandling of cartridge installations. There is currently a flock of Ittoks for sale on UK ebay at present after several months where few turned up. The current ones for sale are all in good condition and are claimed to pass the swing tests so if those swing tests are meaningful then the problems Johnny refers to are not really showing up operationally. On his own forum the Ittoks that do show up appear to be there for a rewire and not for bearings. I have seen one Ittok up for sale on ebay that needed attention earlier this year but that is very unusual. On Johnny's forum there is mention of one Akito with bearing issue and one with an issue with damage (not headshell) that may or may not have been down to over zealous use of "Linn tight". With regard to "Linn tight" I don't tend to use it on any of my decks though my Ekos was dealer installed and I guess he may have used it. If the recommendation from the manufacturer is to install with arm off the deck then with it being such a straight forward process I will follow it.
You can order them from a Linn retailer, occasionally turn up on auction sites, and some make their own. If set well to begin with, they really aren't a problem unless they have been moved with for example, the platter on.
Do you get a less thick texture to your music with certain brands of soup? More seriously, you could put the cans on top of a table with adjustable feet, and be able to perfectly level the plinth that way. You could certainly get the T bar (bolt straightener) in like that. If the deck has ever had a service by a Linn dealer since the introduction of the T bar, the bolts should all hang perpendicular, which apart from the occasional distortions from the very old welded sub-chassis, was the main cause of a difficult to set and maintain LP12. The glued sub-chassis was introduced in 1984 and available as an upgrade. I honestly believe that most the issues that people hold against the LP12, are historical ones from 30 years ago!
Mine still has the welded subchassis, and has never seen a T-bar. Buts this has never caused any problems that I have been aware of. I haven't had to make any adjustments on my Linn since my last move more than 15 years ago. And even then, those were very minor adjustments.
They are really for worse case scenarios, and your experience shows that it is perfectly possible for an older Linn to set up without issues. Either way, difficult to set up and LP12s "going off", really hasn't been an issue for a very long time, and a number of the variables have been engineered out. There is certainly no black magic, and though a complete strip down and re-build may be fairly involved, there is nothing difficult about it. But, ignore some steps, optimum performance will not be achieved.
Good grief! How many times must it be repeated that the Linn LP12 today is NOT your father’s LP12 of yesteryear.
Surely something of a moot point as a 1973 LP12 can potentially be brought up to current spec and after 45 years of "upgrades" both factory and third party many people are using anything, but the deck as it originally shipped and many of those older decks will exceed the performance of the basic current LP12, at heart the Linn is till the same design with it's inherent limitations, just as the Technics is come to that.
The set up issues existed while Linn sales were high and hence are likely still common (since most won't or can't pay for the recent upgrades). Linn sales have been fairly small in the post 'Circus' world and I saw the 00's upgrades as Linn's attempt to revive it while boosting profits (post the near collapse of the company). To be honest the Linn's I've heard in the last 30 years have impressed me even less than previously. Maybe there is just so much more choice out there with a preferable presentation (and more affordable).
Myself and a group of audiophiles were discussing Linns yesterday and we talked mainly about the decline of the suspension turntable. Take Linn for example, when the table is tuned for a certain weight to be applied so the compliance of the springs works with the given record. What happens when you use a 200 gram record versus a say 120 gram record? different weights, the spring will be slightly different, so it is possible for say one record to sound great and the next not so good?
