Technics 1200G or Linn Sondek LP12

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Airbus, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    Just sharing from years of experience...
     
  2. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    The cartridge doesn’t create the sound, in my understanding of the word. The turntable is doing the work, using the record to move the stylus. The cartridge is converting rather than creating.
     
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  3. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Correct, but the two different response are mutually exclusive. I was responding to two very different comments. The LP12 pricing comment, was limited to the LP12 product in particular among all the other products Linn produces. The general business reference comment and Linn's particular small place in massive global marketplace for its niche products (audophilia in general is a tiny percentage of global business) has nothing to do with the LP12 pricing attitude by Linn. Both can coexist, and they do in fact.
     
  4. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Not quite right. The cartridge doesn't create the original music. Rather, the cartridge is a mechanical transducer that creates an electrical signal which can be amplified. It is the design and engineering and materials science that goes into the development of a cartridge motor, cantilever and stylus that determine the quality and accuracy of the transducer and therefore the quality of what will be heard as long as the phono preamp, main preamp, amplifier, speakers and room setup are not also limiting factors in various ways. That's why so many experienced audiophiles always advise friends interested in upgrading their analog setups to acquire the best sources first - the cleanest LPs for play on the best turntable and tonearm they can afford and the best cartridge they can afford - to take the quality of the source out of the equation as much as possible.
     
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  5. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Transducer equals converter, not creator.
     
  6. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    I own belt, idler and direct drive turntables, I have directly compared the same cart, (Ortofon OM10/20) on the same arm, (Rega RB 600) on a Michell Gyro SE and Technics SL1210, I have also compared the same carts on a Roksan Artemiz on both a Xerxes 10 and SL1210 and numerous times I've used the same cart on various belt and direct drives although not with the same arm, all three drive types have what can be described as characteristics caused by the type of drive employed. I've been doing these comparisons for over twenty five years, they are readily repeatable, I suggest you get yourself a direct drive and belt drive and try mounting the same arm and cart on both and then tell me if you hear an identical sound, in the meantime I'll trust my own experience and hearing. Incidentally am I to take it that you are suggesting all motor units sound the same? If only it were so, I could sell all those high end decks off and buy a basic Pro-ject, it would save me a fortune.
     
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  7. Airbus

    Airbus Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Beirut - Lebanon
  8. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I've experienced this in shops with nary a Linn in site. You can't say this behaviour is exclusive to Linn dealers then or now.
     
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  9. swvahokie

    swvahokie Forum Resident

    Well, you both are partially right. A transducer simply converts energy from one form to another, so it is converting and not creating. The creation was done by the cutting lathe. Or was that the amp that powered the cutting lathe. Or was it the tape deck that recorded it, or maybe the mike. :yikes: All transducrs.

    You are dead right about source first, The table has to run at the correct speed and hopefully not transmit any mechanical noise to the platter or the tonearm. The tonearm needs great bearings and a lack of resonance being reflected into the cartridge. After all that, the stylus following the grooves moves a coil inside a magnetic field and there is your electric signal. How the heck it works at all is mind boggling.

    After all that, how do you like your 1200G compared to your Avid. Heard Avid some years ago and was pretty impressed.
     
  10. JNTEX

    JNTEX Lava Police

    Location:
    Texas
    I have an LP12. The key question for the OP is what setup with each table? There is a huge difference between an LP12 with the base power and arm and the radikal and ekos se.

    Also, who is setting up the tables? Would the owner have access to a jig or a service location?
     
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  11. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    I have no objection if someone wants to assert the cartridge is more important than the turntable. I’m simply pointing out the substandard defense of that position. The definitions of the words transducer and create are at odds with each other. I think a claim that the cartridge is most important because it’s a transducer is a circular argument.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  12. chacha

    chacha Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    mill valley CA USA
    I see you have a Radikal and SE. Has that made a huge difference to the table for you? I have a Keel with original Ekos and Lingo 2.
     
  13. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    I believe the guy is talking about high end turntables, the really outstanding ones. If I got it right, he says that at that level there should be no difference between direct and belt drive since the table itself won't produce any sound, it will just let the record and the cartridge be together and do their job, and then any differences should be due to the cartridge/stylus.

    I have no experience to say he's right or wrong, but I wouldn't say he is affirming that a SL1200G would sound the same as a Pro-ject Debut Carbon. Maybe he is but I didn't understand it that way.

    So I believe the point would be this: never mind the basic or mid level tables. Really good high end tables differ from each other sound wise because of being belt or direct driven? You say they do, he says they don't.

    On one side, something tells me that there should be a difference and a lot of respectful people claim that they hear that and I have no reason to doubt it. On the other side, it's interesting to consider that being really high fidelity the turntables should not color the sound depending on the motor and then they should sound the same regardless of motor.

    Unfortunately I can't find it out for myself since I have no access to high end tables regardless direct or belt driven. I don't know but am vividly interested in learning and that's why I'm trying to follow the conversation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
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  14. JNTEX

    JNTEX Lava Police

    Location:
    Texas
    I have not heard an ekos or a lingo on my system. I have heard them on demos using other amps and speakers. The biggest bang for the buck for me was the ekos se. It is miles ahead of the project tone arm I had, as it should be. The radikal is nice, a lot of people say it has the most result on the sound of the deck...there is a difference, but it's subtile and for me it's mostly in the highs (during breaking) and then the bass. Bass was a lot more specific and a lot less just mushy observation.
     
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  15. Airbus

    Airbus Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Beirut - Lebanon
    Pass Electronics, Dynaudio speakers, Nordost cables and interconnects. Dynavector and/or Benz Micro cartridges. No specific dealer for Linn in Lebanon, But most Audio stores can get you one. LP12s are very popular overhere and I had access to audition more than once.
     
  16. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Of course, we agree. I mean, everybody knows that a phono cartridge is not a musical instrument in the traditional sense and that it doesn't create music. If the word "create" is somewhat errantly used by many of us from time to time in these sorts of threads, I think it's only for convenience. That said, many audiophiles describe both the Lp12 and the SL1200G as terrific music makers from the standpoint of a person using either of the turntables with a wide variety of cartridges. I agree with them - both turntables are terrific music makers. There's no bad choice here.
     
  17. JNTEX

    JNTEX Lava Police

    Location:
    Texas
    Well, like all the other crap in this hobby, it's down to cost/utility and preference. I don't regret my purchase...but I have a 30 year old dealer who is experienced, cool, polite and knows the table well. I don't have to jack with setup. Parts and options would be available for either...it's a tough decision. Resale value? Which one looks better in your setup?

    Just understand that there is a very large difference in price and function between the majik and their top of the line.

    I have never taken an LP12 apart, but I know the linn forum has threads where people try upgrades on older decks and bomb them or end up taking them to a dealer. Not that I am afraid of it, just want someone who does it to do it vs me.
     
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  18. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    It's not even about the drive system, if I mount my SME IV on my Roksan Xerxes 10 it will sound different than it does one my Michell Orbe, the Orbe and Xerxes 10 which are very well matched higher end decks have a totally different sound, the reason I bought the Xerxes 10 is because I like the Roksan sound and missed it since my original Xerxes suffered severe problems with the top plate, it's been a long time since I had a LP12 here, but a Linn will impart it's own sonic character which will vary depending on the various modifications that can be applied. Motor units may have one very simple job, but there are many approaches to doing it and even excellent models impart a sonic character, back in the early eighties I thought Linns sounded good, but there was something that didn't sound right to me whereas Pink Triangles sounded fantastic, then the Roksan came along and was different again so I bought one, unfortunately back then we were kept in the dark about high end Japanese direct drives and older idlers, but I'm sure I would have picked up on the sonic signature of each drive type if given the chance, they are generally pretty obvious.
     
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  19. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    I'm not sure where in Europe you will be visiting, or when, or if you will have family with you, but if it is at all possible to fit in a good hi fi show such as Munich you will have the time of your life, I'm going to my local one next week and even though it's not a really major one I know there will be many good decks; Technics, Michell, Rega, Audio Note, Gold Note, probably Townsend, VPI and Nottingham Analogue, maybe even the odd Linn and at the bigger shows you will get really high end super decks, also lots of amps, speakers, phono stages, dacs, headphones, furniture, stuff you've never heard of and some you never will again, you would have lots of fun.:righton:

    This will give you an idea: Sound & Vision - The Bristol Show 2018
     
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  20. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    Nice! I'll be working in Brussels (in the Union Parliament) in October or November. I'll go by myself. Thanks for the tip!
     
  21. swvahokie

    swvahokie Forum Resident

    I didn't disagree with you. Pretty sure I posted the definition of a transducer and pointed out that there are several transducers that are in the signal chain making the record.

    Source first I agree with, but in the case of a TT system, it needs to be balanced. Really like my Rega P3, and I think it handles my Dyna 202xh pretty well, but that doesn't mean it will handle an XV-IT.
     
  22. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    Who said anything about "all"? Lower end units may well have audible motor noise. The OP asked about about two specific tables. As I said, they differ primarily in features. The "sound" of their respective motors is a non- issue.

    I realize this is heresy to many gearheads who have convinced themselves they possess super-hearing. If it validates their hobby and helps them justify expenditures on things like $200/ft cabling, no harm I suppose. If they think they can hear sounds inaudible to most humans, who am I to say they can't?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
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  23. DaveyF

    DaveyF Forum Resident

    Location:
    La Jolla, Calif
    +1000:righton:

    I have heard the technics 1200G and own the LP12 Radikal D....no comparison between the two. Assuming that you have upstream gear that can actually delineate the difference. The LP12 Radikal D is far more resolving and far more musical across the frequency spectrum. The Radikal D allows the table to achieve a precise and accurate speed control and the Radikal motor ( which is DC run) is super quiet. The old bugaboo with DD's is still a concern with all of these designs...can we say 'cogging'!
    IMHO, comparing a well set up and Klimax level LP12 to a Technics 1200G is kind of like comparing a Ferrari to a Prius.:shake:

    Oh, I'm sure all of the LP12 detractors have heard a LP12 and are sure of their opinion.....problem is they haven't heard or owned this table in like what-----
    25 years or so, LOL.:shrug:
     
  24. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    I've owned a Linn Sondek for over 30 years. I'd love to hear a fully kitted out LP12. What Hi-Fi gave it a great review - but GBP18,000 is up there. The base price is fine, but the add-ons are pretty expensive.
     
  25. vinylkid58

    vinylkid58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Victoria, B.C.
    Well that's good to know. You just saved me from a huge financial burden. I can sell both my tables, and buy a cheap Project Debut and be assured that it will sound the same as my LP12 and SL-1200.:laugh:

    They're easy to take apart and re-assemble, but if you're afraid, then don't attempt it.

    jeff
     
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