Where on earth can you even here that combo? Nowhere here in the UK I would wager and certainly not on a Keel which needs modifying. I don't doubt it may sound better than a Linn arm as was never a big fan. I wouldn't dismiss the idea of the tie wire as it makes sense. Something similar is part of the Michell Pederson mods but to me they ruin the look of the deck and involve 'damaging' the subchassis.
I don't think Well Tempered makes arms with pucks any more, for good reason, as I have explained, so you would be very unlikely to get a dem of it. The Well Tempered decks and arms have come a long way since then. I have been using an Amadeus for about ten years, with the golf ball arm which to a great extent fixes the vertical effective mass limitations, so contrary to what is being said, I am very familiar with the capabilities of Well Tempered arms, which are excellent. My suggestion of using a stretch of thread (ideally kevlar), which I originally called 'Kleat', or 'Kleatoris' to give its proper engineering name, to oppose inelastically the varying rubber belt tension could easily be made permanent and almost invisible by tethering under the arm board at the near right corner and attaching to a small metal fixing on the inside of the plinth one armboard thickness down from the top. I'm currently designing an adjustable version. I emphasize that I came up with this modification by practical experimentation on my Sondek after theoretical analysis - it's not just theory - and if you have a Sondek you can experiment with this in the next five minutes just using thread and tape. Some listeners who are sensitive to pitch will recognise the metronomic speed stability and steady tuneful notes characteristic of more powerful decks like any Technics DD or well-maintained Garrard idlers. Many won't like it. The mod has timbral consequences too, which is why optimisation of the thread tension is recommended. Too much tension may be a timbre killer, too little fails to correct the wobbles. Some people just like the wobbles. Good for them. Look at the lengths Leslie went to:
I meant to reply to this 2 1/2 month ago but didn't actually finish what I had started! That video shows a Linn Sondek LP12 that somewhere along the line has been sadly butchered by an amateur. It is excellent for showing how a formerly good sounding turntable can be handicapped so much that it would in all probability be outperformed by an eighties Rega Planar 3. There is nothing inherently wrong with a 1980 LP12 and in fact the one in the video has almost certainly been serviced by a Linn dealer after 1984, as it has the glued sub-chassis and diode mod which Linn supplied to dealers from 1985. The armboard is the laminate one, from 1987, the arm collar fitted with incorrect bolts and missing the crinkle washers. The guy in the video suggests that there are two school of thoughts on using the "black oil" with the gold bearing housing with white liner. There are - right, don't use it and completely wrong; use it and wreck the turntable. These days you can easily find this on the Internet, but throughout my time as a Linn retailer we knew this: Bearing Oil Below is a table showing all bearing and housing combinations used by Linn. Unless otherwise stated always use Linn black oil. Bearing Housing Bearing Liner Colour Colour 1. Silver Black 2. Silver White 3. Gold White* 4. Black White (1984) 5. Black Black (1987) serial no.(Approx.) -70,000 6. Black Black: CIRKUS kit serial number 90582. * Use this bearing housing with a light mineral machine oil. Black Oil can cause it to seize. Because the bold highlight and asterisk was clearly not enough, I put in italics. I have witnessed some Gold bearing houses incorrectly used with the black oil and the performance had been sadly, very compromised. Fortunately because other owners have updated the bearing housing and inner (should always be done together) this can be rectified for not a lot of money. The motor has been positioned incorrectly at some time, there are mudguard washers missing, the arm cable p-clip back to front and not pre-formed. If the bearing housing liner swelling isn't enough, the motor pulley and inner platter haven't been cleaned in decades, somewhat negating precision engineering - even the drive belt is precision ground. Sadly @Hardcore, your video shows a turntable that is not capable of performing close to how it was designed to. The LP12 below is still an eighties model, note the use of a Linn jig and bolt straightener. Corner fillets with the glued sub-chassis, both introduced in 1984. The p-clip has been removed, but compare the routing of the arm cable. Majik power supply with Kore sub-chassis. Note the extra bolt (introduced March 1992) through the corner fillet to prevent a lifting and rattling top plate in the motor corner. A lifted top plate can be seen in your video. This can be rectified with a little time and effort, but Linn engineered it out 28 years ago. A current plinth with Keel and Radikal, but before Karousel. Linn Sondek LP12 Sub-Chassis & Main Bearing - Cymbiosis The improved tolerances to the main bearing and inner platter cannot be appreciated from a strip down video and really only by listening. I'm not for a minute suggesting that this will change your opinion, but unfortunately your video shows an awful example of a LP12, and despite the guys electrical knowledge, he doesn't know that the Valhalla generates a 50 or 60Hz sine wave, giving some immunity to mains variations. Edit. Just like a Technics SL-1200 Mk 2 (with good condition arm bearings), a 1980 Sondek despite the advances can bring much listening pleasure - upgrades whilst beneficial are not compulsory. The one in the video without some TLC, would not.
Nearly 50 years of evolution in your hand: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...i_DMLZUyFepk1RzHCLo1sqkyFONWqAYZdQBLvXBovXIox
@Randoms Great post.. Will fall on deaf ears though... No point trying to convince folks who are so blinkered that they just know what they know...even though they have NOT heard a Linn LP12 in decades..or probably ever!!
You are right, though of course it doesn't mean those who have an opposing opinion are wrong! If you owned your LP12 prior to the introduction of the Karousel earlier this year, that opinion is of course entirely irrelevant to the present. I'm sure you will take that comment as flippantly as it was intended, though of course it is relevant!
You should tell that to a certain Linn acolyte in this thread who seems to want to burn people at the stake for stating that there are other tables better than the LP12. As for the Karousel, I’m sorry, but no bearing will transform the Lp12 enough for me to prefer it over my 1200G. It may improve the LP12, but it’s not sorcery.
Over the years there has been a lot of hype over LP12 I bought one ! This was in 1979. With nirvana added a year later. The arm Was the Ittok. Gorgeous. Could listen to it for hours and did so. At the time apart from the SL10 I believe, ( THE model BBC used after using Garrard 401,s) Technics were not considered in same League. At the time, this was probably True. AT present, things are not the same. Linn LP12 has undergone many changes. All in my opinion OVER THE TOP, WITH OUTRAGEOUS PRICES. It may interest you to know, that during a conversation with the late John Mitchell Maker of Gyrodeck, he called the Linn A wooden box with a ball bearing. Think Bout it. How far can you take A basic Thorens TD150 or A&R ( forget Which model our American friends called it) turntable. As I recall, linn, s performance was Big, Smooth with slightly curtailed treble. Opera, depending on cartridge choice, Usually costly MC, was not always properly tracked. I know this as fitting a Hadcock, and Shure V15 mk3 proved. My point is, that today, the LP12 is costly, Yet to my ears money is not always a good Arbitor of sound quality. The Timestamp variant proves the Technics is a genuine top quality Contender Fitted with a Grade green or Nagoaka Mp150, will I,m sure weave spells for you. Please, listen for yourself and ignore any Hype that goes around. Try piano Record on LP12, and then the Technics.
I always found John Michell to be a gentleman and never heard him say a bad word about any other manufacturer. As an engineer John knew the one thing a Linn turntable didn't have was a cheap ball bearing, but an expensive to manufacturer single point bearing. So an interesting, very surprising and totally inaccurate comment. The performance of the RD11 was never as good when the single point bearing was replaced by the much simpler to manufacturer shaft and ball bearing.
Without hearing what the new bearing can do for the table, i fail to comprehend how this comment makes any sense??
The last time this member ( like the other naysayers here) heard a new Linn LP12 ( of any version) was what...30 years ago or more??? No problem...right guys??? ( I do love the idea that the LP12 uses a ball bearing as its main bearing...Uhmm---NO)
I think his point was that apart from a high quality bearing, the Linn was a simple design in an elegant plinth No one can deny Linn,s commitment to Quality materials. Now the gyrodek by design put equal weight on all springs. Unlike the Linn, which compensated By tightening the spring in the case Of a heavier arm. I dealt with John a few times. I sent my Iso hr to have it changed to suit My Troika. "They have ruined it, ," he told me, d sent me a new one. And changed his service Technician! Honest man.
It was a pun. Linn have used 3 different bearings To my knowledge. OK, I heard one a few years ago. At the present prices I would hear both Decks. Only way I know. Both will sound different. If one likes the Linn sound then Go for it.
It makes sense because no matter how good the bearing is, it’s not going to change the sound of the table 100%. It’s only a bearing. We get it, you really like the LP12. It doesn’t mean it’s the greatest turntable in the world. You seem to take personal offense when anyone even merely suggests that another table is better.
Actually, I take absolutely no offense whatsoever...I think it is amusing that folks want to stay uniformed about the LP12..and will continue in their beliefs. Having heard the Technics and numerous other tables, I know where the LP12 Klimax level model stands. Since you have no experience with these things, and insist that the bearing makes little difference, I won't argue with you...I stand by what I stated in my post #880.
I only had dealings with John a few times over a 15 year period as three of the four shops I worked were Michell dealers he was always a pleasure to communicate with. Yes, the LP12 is fundamentally a simple design very obviously based around a Thorens TD150, which Ivor owned, but wasn't entirely happy with - it sounded better outside the listening room. A new single point bearing was designed and manufactured at Castle Engineering which Ivor believed was a massive part of the improved information retrieval which the LP12 gave. Not going back over old arguments, but used springs to improve acoustic isolation later sitting a LP12 on top of Isobariks to demonstrate the efficiency of the suspension. It was Ivor demonstrating his turntable as being such a key component to a good system and single speaker demonstration rooms, which we all now take for granted, rather than the LP12 being a radical design that rattled the industry. Listen to the Linn Sondek LP12. @cre009, please correct this if I have got timescales and detail wrong. I don't know how you can make turntables that look fundamentally different. Linn borrowed from Thorens who borrowed from the 1961AR XA which may have been inspired by the Orpheus Silex / Stromberg Carlson Perfecto, right back to the 1955 Scott 710. A Technics DD doesn't look radically different to a Garrard 301 and how many companies have taken inspiration from David Gammon's iconic and flamboyant designs? A Clockwork Orange anyone? Which takes us right back to J. A. Michell engineering. Ruining an Ittok by very slightly increasing the third mount hole dimension (before Linn did it as standard) is a real achievement!! I'm sure that John Michell is very much missed and he was similar to Ivor by being a bit of a control freak. He took those Transcriptors designs to new heights and gave us some iconic designs and excellent sounding turntables.
Unfortunately the link in post #879 which showed three generations of LP12 bearing housings is broken, but yes three fundamental designs, though the pre-Cirkus bearing had 5 variations. The last black with black liner had better tolerances and gave better sound than the previous black / white.
Al I can say is the Gyro / Orbe inverted bearing is a sophisticated but on the surface simple design that is superior to any Linn single point bearing. Inverted bearing concept is now widely used elsewhere. Also the Gyro is a rigid arm platform as opposed to the flexible Linn arm board. Something Linn have corrected if you can meet the cost of a subchassis upgrade. Michell did a ground up design based on knowledge of manufacturing the Transcriptors reference TT. Linn borrowed a 1960s design and kept reengineering it in an attempt to keep pace with the market. I would agree the new Linn bearing is probably very important but it should have come before some of the other more costly upgrades. Maybe they will redesign the springs next?
I haven't heard a current spec Linn, but the obvious question is why it's taken Linn nearly fifty years and numerous expensive upgrades to get to the current level, whether or not the current Linn is better than the latest Technics in the same period Technics have had to do hardly any upgrades to their original design, different feet, a different motor and better arm if the arm even counts to turn a mid range deck into something more ambitious, it looks like Technics got their design right first time fifty years ago whilst Linn have had to continually improve theirs to try and keep up with the competition and although I haven't heard the latest Linn, the newest ones I have heard seemed to be sounding much closer to those competitors than to LP12s of old which had what we knew as "the Linn sound". Linn aren't the only deck manufacturer which has lost their "sound" as their designs improve and their decks become more transparent, my Xerxes 10 sounds much closer to my Orbe than to my original Xerxes, so if what we want is transparent decks that spin records the correct speed without imparting any sound of their own the high end deck manufacturers are succeeding and we are spoiled for choice, but there was something to be said for some character and part of me misses being able to walk into a demo room and know if I was listening to a Sondek, Xerxes or Pink Triangle just from what I was hearing.
To be fair the current Technics models are ground up redesign under the skin but look similar. They got it much more right given technology nearly 50 yrs ago but I found the mk II uninvolving without modifications. The 1200G is audiophile sound out of the box but can be improved incrementally by non invasive mods such as mat and headshell changes. Arm bearings and materials much improved over the earlier models. Linn should have done a ground up redesign in the 90s or early 00s I think. The backwards compatibility is probably because moding old decks is a better business but for some of these modifications a new TT of at least equal quality could be purchased.
I had a great deal of respect for both John Michell and his turntables and sold some back in the eighties and nineties. My local dealer demonstrate Pro-Ject, SME, Michell, Linn and Technics and there are fans of each. The simple fact is that the Linn Sondek LP12 is still prefered by some people, others prefer the Technics SL-1000R etc. These are all good turntables and if choosing today I honestly don't know which I would choose. When I bought my last turntable which was a LP12 a few weeks before the Cirkus was released, it was in preference to the Roksan Xerxes and Michell turntables. I listened to several turntables that we didn't stock. I lived with the pre-Cirkus bearing and then fitted the Cirkus kit - I thought it was a significant upgrade. That LP12 and a few before have given me thousands of hours of listening pleasure. I haven't been able to run a turntable since that LP12, which apart from changing the plinth finish, arm cable and changing from a prototype Lingo to surface mount Lingo 2 and several cartridges remained unchanged until I had to sell it after 15 years of happy use. If I was buying today of course I would audition a LP12, but am totally open minded to what I would choose. I haven't heard a LP12 with a Karousel or a Technics SL-1000R. I don't see Linn having a Majik, Akurate and Klimax level LP12 as any different from Technics having the SL-1200GR, G and 1000R. It is of no concern of mine what turntables people prefer, though it makes sense to me to select it from preference listening to them. Happy listening to your Orbe and G: I am genuinely interested in which one you levitate towards when you want to chill and listen to music.
I don’t understand why you keep saying I have no experience with these things. I’ve owned an LP12 with a Radikal, Ekos, Kahn top plate and trampoline. I now own a 1200G with a Jelco TK-850S tonearm on it. Have you ever owned a Technics 1200G? No, I don’t believe you have. I’ve also owned a Rega P5, Rega P9, Well Tempered Amadeus GTA, and a restored Thorens TD-124. How many other tables have you owned? So the the way I look at it is I have more experience than you on the matter. And I don’t care if the Karousel was forged in the fires of Mount Doom by Sauron himself. It’s not transforming the sound of the deck to sound entirely different. Much like all the other upgrades for the LP12. They may improve the sound of the deck (to some people, as some prefer the pre-Cirkus sound), but the overall design of the LP12 is antiquated. If Linn was so great at design, why haven’t they designed a brand new table from the ground up in the last 50 years? It’s so they can continue to milk money from people who already have the LP12. And that’s not that bad of a thing on the surface because it allows people to keep older tables in service, though the costs of the upgrades are ridiculous. But they could have both continued with upgrades for the LP12 while also introducing a new table. I think part of the reason you get so angry may have to do with how much you’ve spent on the LP12 upgrades over the years. In your mind, for all the money you spent, there can’t possibly be a better table that may actually cost a lot less, even though there are many tables that better LP12 for substantially less money.
IF --IF-- you owned a LP12 Klimax level model in the past--and now have replaced it with a 1200G, all i can say is good for you~ someone got a great table when you sold your LP12...and IMO a far superior one than you have now Luckily, for you YMMV BTW, where do you get angry from?..LOL. As Randoms posted above, and which I totally agree with him.." It is of no concern of mine what turntables people prefer, though it makes sense to me to select it from preference listening to them"...well stated!
