Technics 1200GR vs alternatives

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Giacomo Belbo, Sep 24, 2018.

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  1. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    I'm guessing that its a combination, especially if he is listening to old, less than pristine records. The Black can be brutal with some records, and a bunch more finicky than most with setup. The output statement surprises me though as I've heard nothing that that had as high an output as the 2M series, though I thought my Blue was a bit hight than my Black.

    I'm a cartridge junkie, but I haven't owned an AT cart in many years. Might have to try one at some point.
     
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  2. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    Oh, I understand it, I simply disagree with the more $$$ = better in the audiophile world. Sometimes it does, often, it does not.
     
  3. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.

    Whether you are a believer or not, in the world of carts, it usually does.
    I see you do not have a stand alone phono pre? IMO, you are limiting your possibilities if that be true.
     
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  4. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    I think that's a valid statement in any arena, but it's also subjective. We all have different value systems for judging what is better or worse. No one can make a value decision for another. I highly doubt that the G or GR are much better than what I have (if at all) but my mind is really contemplating getting a GR or even G for my big system and using my Mk2 for the office which would allow me to move carts around between them. Only thing stopping me is the thought of selling one or two of my current stable. I REALLY hate selling gear and have way too much now.
     
  5. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.

    In your case, I would suggest the G model vs the GR.
     
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  6. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    Sometimes it does, sometimes it does not. And no, I don't use a separate pre-amp for phono, I'm satisfied with what I already hear from my Yamaha and Marantz's. I'm not in the hunt like you and others are, I'm into listening to music so it sounds pleasing to me. The search for the most realistic playback and the endless chase is not in the DNA of this musician. :) As long as what I own plays back music in a pleasing, satisfying manner, I'm good. It was a lifetime ago that I worked in high end audio but I did and I formed opinions then which have held up today. Not suggesting you're wrong or anyone else on the journey is wrong but many spend money foolishly in the pursuit and spend far more than necessary trying to get that last 1-2%. If one has the money and enjoys the constant gear swaps, upgrades, and never ending chase, cool. That ain't me, I like to listen to music as much as I can with what I have.

    The only reason I'm really in this thread is that I needed (OK, *wanted* a second turntable). In looking at everything in my price range out there, the Technics made the most sense to me for a no muss, no fuss machine. At least $500 more than I wanted to spend but, when it came down to it, it really was the only choice for what I wanted in a new turntable. It will be reliable, it will play at the correct speed, it will sound at least as good if not better than my SL-QL1, and the $225 for the 540ML and headshell I spent was the most I ever spent for a cart. So, if I'm limiting my possibilities with that, I couldn't be less concerned and I'll have more time to listen to music and spend my money on other things that also interest me.
     
  7. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Keeping in mind that what you do, or don't do, is of no consequence (or business) of mine, but you say one thing but seem to do another (your GR purchase).
    And I do not chase endlessly for upgrades, I entered into this with an end game in mind which I have reached, other that a couple of cable purchases....and of course carts wear out...so....
    Anyhoo, I hate to see you get a big boy table then choke it's potential. A stand alone phono pre can truly be a game changer!
    Don't close your mind to the possibilities. Nothing wrong with being frugal, but you're in the wrong hobby to be a cheapskate (and not saying you are).:)
     
  8. luckybaer

    luckybaer Thinks The Devil actually beat Johnny

    Location:
    Missouri
    Especially a standalone phono pre that has multiple gain settings and multiple load settings. Always nice to know the gear can handle whatever cart strikes my fancy, for example.
     
  9. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    True 'dat....always buy more (phono pre's) than you think you need at the time, no need to keep upgrading.
    I got a Simaudio Moon 310LP, much more than I need at the moment, but should handle anything I can afford to throw at it in the future!
     
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  10. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    Guess I'm in the wrong "hobby" then. I'll try to suffer along. :(

    I think I explained why I decided to spend the money for the Technics but it was painful to do so. However, it was the only table out there that had most of the features I wanted and wasn't made in China. As to pre-amps, go ahead and convince me why I'm missing one when the phono stages in the Yamaha receiver and Marantz integrated amp I'll be using have very well thought of phono stages to begin with. Is a $100 dollar pre-amp better? No? How about $200, how about $500, how about $1000? $250 cartridge not enough? How about $350, how about $500, how about $750? It's ridiculous. I'm playing records that are 30-50 years old, I'm not buying new vinyl and don't intend to, I'm playing through mid-level gear. C'mon man, this is about what you want, not what I want. There's always just one more thing when you're chasing the unobtainable. Reread my signature because that's how I approach hi-fi after a little over 50 years of it.

    I'm simply not interested in gear swapping, doing endless tests, and yadda, yadda, yadda. But I enjoy reading about others who do that. I'm just not one of them. I want to play my records, CDs, cassettes, internet radio streams so they are pleasing to my ears. If they are, I'm good. No need to spend endless money on a chase for something I don't really care much about. It's the music, not the gear. I listen to the former, not the latter.
     
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  11. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.

    Yes to all of your questions.
    The fact that you are playing vintage pressings makes it even more important as they have some sweet stuff in those grooves!
    BTW, I have a PM8003, so I know whatcha' got there, and it is nice. Just hard to beat getting it out the big box and on it's own, with it's own dedicated power supply.
    Not the mention the options available for fine tuning.
    And about your sig....without the gear, you can't play the music....so you are listening to your gear....it just needs to appear to get out of the way.
    No need to take just my word about it....ask around.
     
  12. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    Talking in circles but I appreciate your opinion. Hope you appreciate mine as well.
     
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  13. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    If what you got works for you, then you got the right stuff. What seems strange to many of us is that your turntable choice seems skewed beyond the rest of your gear. But the GR will likely last decade and the other pieces are only limiting is you hit that limit. I do think that the phono stage and cartridge have more influence on the sound than almost anything else, and far more than the actual turntable, so I am one that is somewhat puzzled when I see someone leave a good bit on the table there. Kinda of like McIntosh putting a $250 cart (BluePoint 2) on the MT5.

    As to the $100/250/500/1000 preamp question, I think the right answer is about $500. That's where you get a unit that allows you to get a level of flexibility that onboard just doesn't match. (FWIW, I'm listening to a 40+ yo Lovin'Spoonful record on an onboard phono stage right now :) )
     
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  14. luckybaer

    luckybaer Thinks The Devil actually beat Johnny

    Location:
    Missouri
    Some folks want to squeeze that final 10% out of the music no matter the cost.

    Some folks are happy with getting 80% there while spending as little as possible.

    Some like comparing releases and gear and will buy multiple items that perform the same function.

    There’s room for everyone!
     
  15. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    Again, I bought the turntable because it was the only thing out there that had what I wanted. Just because it might be better than my other gear, relatively speaking, I have no interest in replacing or adding to anything else. Not all of us think that way. Matter of fact, I think many audiophiles are nuts with the chase. I don't care so why does some try to convince others that only their way is the right way?

    My ears are 68 years old now, do you think I hear the same as some younger guys? Frankly, it amazes me that others can't accept what others do. And consider, I still spend most of my listening streaming. This is why I have to leave this place after a while. People can't let well enough alone because they believe everyone should do what they do. SMH.
     
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  16. MusicNBeer

    MusicNBeer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    I just realized I miscalculated the tonearm resonance. The AT740ML is listed as 11 cu. What I missed is that's at 100Hz. At 10Hz it's 1.5 to 2 times that, and confirms what my needledrop shows, a resonance of 6.5Hz. :realmad: Oh well, I guess I should have bought a lighter headshell and/or the vm540ml.

    On the plus side, the VM740ML is sounding absolutely beautiful. I guess I'll have to be careful with super warped records.
     
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  17. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    I'm the 80%er. I like this philosophy so much, I just updated my tagline!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  18. MusicNBeer

    MusicNBeer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    Hope you stick around. I'd really like to hear what you think of your setup once you get it running. Plus we can help you, if needed, get any issues resolved with the setup.
     
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  19. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    Thanks. I've drifted in and out of here for about 6 years now. I doubt I'll have any issues with set-up but thanks for the offer. Like I said, I've been doing this for over 50 years and I learned loooong ago what my interest and comfort level is. As far as setting up turntables, I have done more than I can count in my old line of work. There's always better, I simply don't care to chase it. I'm in the good enough for my ears camp. The minutia is up to those of you who like to delve into it. I don't.
     
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  20. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    I just looked up that Simaudio. It sells for more than my Yamaha receiver, Onkyo CD player, and Celestion DL-8 II speakers altogether! You and I listen in different leagues (I looked at your profile). I get you don't want to play in my league but I hope you can understand that I have no interest in playing in yours either. I also get that the 1210GR is a TT above the league I play in but that's not why I bought it. I simply wanted a Japanese made, DD, QL turntable and I didn't want to buy used so this was the only choice available to me. I would have been happy with one of their old tables if this were 1982 again. ;)
     
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  21. MusicNBeer

    MusicNBeer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    If you don't suffer from analysis paralysis like the rest of us, I suppose you are better off sticking in the music section!
     
  22. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    I've never posted there once. And I was a science major but not everyone suffers from analysis paralysis like some of you mugs. ;)

    Honestly, I skip about 80% of the threads here as well because I don't care about that nth degree and getting into the weeds. I'm mostly interested in threads where people are talking about bookshelf speakers, turntables, formats, posting pictures of their set-ups, and cables (until the discussion turns to poetic descriptions of how they sound...).

    All that said, if you heard my main system, with all it's mid-level gear, I think you and most others would, at the least, find it *musical*. How musical depends on the source recording.
     
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  23. MusicNBeer

    MusicNBeer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    Ha! I'm lower 50% quality myself.
     
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  24. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    I believe that I finally settled down with my system with the Nagaoka MP-500. I struggled with my AVR and old speakers and specially the 2M Black for too much time unfortunately, that cartridge is not a good match for my phono stage and for my less than pristine records with lo-fi music. But now I think my system is balanced enough so every record I play sounds like it should. I have detail, 3d soundstage, energy and excitement. Of course I could have a different and better cartridge in this system, it would handle a more expensive one, and I may try that in the future. But now I don't feel the need. I'll have to give myself some time to test this belief but I believe that I got to where I wanted to be since the beginning. If I knew then what I know now I would have saved myself one turntable, one phono stage, some cables, and a few cartridges and headshells, but you often need to go through a path of your own to learn.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  25. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    It’s all just fun discussions. For a lot of us it’s truly an active hobby and we swap gear like one might swap their golf clubs or fishing tackle. You mentioned photography, I’m sure you’ve been in my on a Canon vs Nikon discussion or two ( I switched from Nikon to Olympus several years ago and never look back!). I love the pictures and discussion, but find all the hand wringing - especially when it comes to vinyl - to be pretty comical. Lots of the more colorful terms I don’t even understand.

    But hey, the process is part of the fun, and as long as you have the means to enjoy it, then it’s fun. I started playing with lots of gear as a teen and through my twenties, then got away from it for a couple decades ( not completely, but to a lesser degree). Now I consider experimenting with new gear a part of my mid life crisis and am able to commit more resources to it than I could ever have in my youth, so I’ve become a creator of used gear which benefits many :p. If only I would get around to parting with it!
     
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