Technics 1200MK5 anti skate? Is this right?

I use the Shure V15V test record to adjust anti-skate. It satisfies.

 

Interesting because this matches my own experience on my own DIY table/arm while using the Hi-Fi News Test Record.

That is, when I'm all done dialing-things in via the album, I find that placing the stylus on the smooth portion of the album causes it to ever-so-slowly move towards the spindle.

This has been the case now with several different cartridges, I always get the same result. Enough so that I'd consider it a rule-of-thumb for setting my anti-skating, if I didn't have the Hi-Fi News Test Record.

I also believe that Schroeder (the high-end tonearm designer) indicates this is a valid method for setting anti-skating, or at least checking your settings.

Maybe a little less interesting after this...

On my DIY arm, I use a weight to achieve anti-skating. I make the weights myself by making small coils of steel wire (using a wood dowel as a form).

I have found that my anti-skating weight matches my VTF 1:1, if attached 1" behind the pivot.

Now, in my case, the anti-skating weight is actually attached at .75" back from the pivot (due to design). But if my VTF is 1.75-grams, then my anti-skating weight will be 1.75/.75 = 2.33-grams.

 

Thats what Peter Ledermann claims is the most optimal setting as well, but I find that it does change. Some carts will require more.

 

I should take a video of it and post on You Tube.

 

Yes please.

 

I am probably the last person remaining on Earth, who does not have a smart phone. When I get one, or a digital vid cam, I will do a demonstration.

 

Well answer me a question anyhow.

I was reading a little on the topic and came across a thread where they were talking about bent cantilevers due to no anti-skating mechanism.

I can understanding distorting the suspension because of too much anti-skating correction.

But does the cantilever distort towards the spindle if there is NO anti-skating correction applied?

 

Just occurred to me, thinking cap on, what exactly do I see as a stylus lowers into the record groove? Who among us has calibrated eyes, with built in dial gauges to see such things? Certainly the antiskate method I claim to be quite accurate, can not be measured, nor quantified. Observation is a large part of science, but the visual usually needs to be verified by measurable results.

First of all, the cantilever suspension floats under the downward force of the tracking force. The cantilever suspension preloads and the cantilever moves in the opposite direction of the tracking force. So as we cue the stylus, and lower it into the groove, the cantilever should deflect upward. This preload is visible, although not measurable via the naked eye.

Just observe the cantilever as the stylus lowers into the groove, it will move.

In addition to the downward force exerted by the tracking pressure, we have also side forces via skating. It's important to keep in mind, the cantilever reacts opposite to the forces acted upon it. As the cantilever suspensions floats under preload, the cantilever can move in any direction as per any force, up, down, left or right.

We can also look at what the cartridge does, perhaps more so than looking at the cantilever
During the cueing operation, it takes only milliseconds for the stylus to settle at its recommended tracking force.. and the suspension preloads, and the cantilever deflects upward slightly. It is at this moment the cartridge/headshell will do one of three things:

1) Nudges inward (the cantilever will go opposite, to your right) (apply more anti-skate)
2) Nudges outward (the cantilever will go opposite to your left) (apply less anti-skate)
3) Does not nudge left nor right (the cantilever remains centered) (play lotto and don't forget me )

So, when setting the antiskate, maybe it would be better to observe the cartridge. (relationship of cartridge centerline to the record) The eye is very sensitive to movement. Certainly we can not measure it, but we can see it. Maybe it's just me.. as a former auto body tech and painter (electronics tech also) that I am keen to "spacial relationships" and can prep any panel for a three stage black finish.

 

Depends some on your frame of reference and what you mean by distort. The stylus friction force has a component directed toward the spindle due to the overhang, so the tonearm wants to move in that direction, while the stylus is held in the groove, so a highly compliant cartridge would show the cantilever slightly bent toward the outside of the record. Most modern cartridges won't show much, if any deflection, though.

 

No anti-skate causes cantilever lean away from the spindle, leans to your right looking head on. The cantilever suspension also develops a twist, or a stylus that leans inward, or azimuth error. This was always a problem for some ceramics/ magnetic cartridges on record changers, which had no anti-skate. The suspension fatigued, which then the cantilever develops a permanent lean or bend to the outside.

As the record groove tugs on the stylus, skating force "pulls" the arm inward. The cantilever reacts opposite, it bends outward.

 

The Shure test records for most lay audiophiles are easiest to use, and correspond to the professional level test records in accuracy. I recommend owning them as they're useful for everybody's test and setup needs.

 

When you watch the stylus settle and momentarily deflect, what you’re seeing is the skating force versus the inertia of the tonearm, combined with the antiskating compensation. The inertia of the tonearm is too much of a wild card for this method to be informative.

 

Seems to me the Shure records are nice for anyone, with or without, audiophile/electronics engineering credentials, who is has no measurement equipment to confirm when the TT has been setup properly.

 

Exactly what I am saying. For most people, the Shure test records are all you need. They're simple enough to understand for non technical people, the tests are relevant to your needs, well explained by the announcer. You don't need test equipment either. If your tonearm and cartridge cleanly play up to level 3, you can play 99% of all commercial recordings made without mistracking issues. Which is as good as you can get. Shure's test LP discs make this easy to do with reasonably good equipment.

 

How many levels are there?

 

Mine (an Era IV) has five.

 

Any carts that can track level 4 or 5?

 

I've been able to get through level 5 with an AT VM540ML no problems, 2 grams tracking and anywhere between 0 and 2.5 on the anti-skate knob.

 

All the Shure V 15 models from II Improved onward can mounted in the appropriate Shure/SME tonearms set up correctly, or in other low mass tonearms. Most of the trickle down models of the V 15 models at the time, can also do so to Level 4 in suitable arms with their top styli installed and set up correctly. ADC top models, Audio-Technica top models, top Ortofons and the best Stanton/Pickerings do so with genuine styli in tonearms optimal for their use.

 

Info overload haha . Maybe I should get a HiFi News test record so I can see for myself if my anti skate is not just working, but accurate. Like I mentioned before, as I have it set up now, it sounds good to me, I don’t hear anything that should not be there or anything unbalanced.

I’m about 90% sold on the 540ML for my Technics. It seems like a really good cart for the price I want to spend.

I think I will invest in a test record. I’ve used test discs when I used to set up high end carfi gear back in the day, so it makes sense to me to do it for my TT.

What’s the best test record to get? HiFi News or one of the Shure discs? Is the correct ****e disc the one called “an audio obstacle course” with a black and yellow cover?

 

I built my own table and arm, I had no point of reference other than what I could hear. And while records sounded fine, I had concerns that a subtle problem might result in me damaging records.

What the test record demonstrated was, my "by-ear" setup that sounded very good could handle the first level bias test, but the second and beyond were problematic. Some would argue that I should have stopped there, that the first bias track is more representative of the music we actually play. But I decided to increase the tracking force .25 grams and the anti-skating weight about the same, and I was able to successfully listen to all four test tracks, with only the fourth proving a hint of distortion. And I also found the "drift" method of testing the anti-skating was approximating what Schroeder indicated was appropriate.

I recently replaced my stylus and now I get more distortion in the 4th track, but the stylus isn't broken-in yet.

In hindsight, I wouldn't have purchased the test record if I had a commercial deck. But now that I have it, I don't think I'd want to be without it.

In the final analysis, I don't think the changes I made were enough to necessarily hear a difference in all but the more extreme cases. But still worthwhile to me.

 

What stylus is on it?

 

Currently an ATN112EP.

Checked notes, more/better recollection of details...

I'm using T4P/p-mount cartridges in a 1/2" adapter. Call me crazy, I have my reasons.

I started w/ a VS215E[P] (old) with an ATN102EP stylus (old, possibly original, but the diamond looked good). That is the green elliptical stylus. After tweaking, I think I was able to get through the third track with just a very tiny hint of distortion, with more distortion on track #4. I think I was at 1.5 grams for both VTF and anti-skating. (I should keep better notes.)

I switched out to an AT112EP body and a brand-new ATN112EP stylus (still T4P/p-mount). That is the blue stylus, a genuine Audio Technica one. After tweaking, I was able to get through the second track with just a tiny, tiny hint of distortion, with more distortion on track #3 and abundant distortion on #4. This required 1.75 grams for both VTF and anti-skating.

So it would seem performance actually suffered test-wise, going from (perhaps very) old, to new.

OTOH: (1) Sound is good. (2) Blue stylus should break-in. (3) That old green stylus is a question mark for me. I've actually ordered a replacement for that one, too.

 

With a finer stylus you could track better.