Tell me about switching from MM to MC carts

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Vibrolux_Reverb, Nov 24, 2021 at 10:26 AM.

  1. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    the differencs can be minimal between the wrong MC and the right MM. the problem is that the ceiling on MM performance is quite low while the sky is the limit for better quality LOMCs.
     
  2. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Going with the flow...

    Location:
    PA
    I just got my AT 540 ML!
    And it sounds great. :)
    All in due time.
    With me that is usually sooner than later.
    :D


    What happened to @csgreene ?
    We started off rocky but reached a good middle ground. The 540 ML made me think of him.
     
    PATB, TheVinylAddict and harby like this.
  3. bjlefebvre

    bjlefebvre Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington DC-ish
    I was also going to recommend the Denon SUTs as a starter, especially with Denon carts. They're good!
     
    ranch 22b likes this.
  4. bjlefebvre

    bjlefebvre Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington DC-ish
    I had a Denon 320, then goofed around with a lot of DIY SUT projects. For my Denon 103 (and now Hana SL) the Cinemag 1257 SUT won out in my ears. The sound is fuller than the Denon but doesn't skip out on the details.
     
    Davey likes this.
  5. Tourswede

    Tourswede Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    I check the tracking/weight/etc as well as a test record from time to time and so far nothing is giving any indication of an overly worn tip. I do keep it in mind though but everything sounds really great still. I was trying to think if I was over estimating the cart use but I don't think so. I'm also trying to not overthink it. Spent far too many years doing that ha.
     
  6. Davey

    Davey NP: Broadcast ~ Haha Sound (on repeat, as usual)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Yea, that's fine, the main concern is taking it too far and possibly damaging your records, but I did find a 2004 blurb from an Audio Note dealer that seems to indicate they do believe you should get between 2000 - 3000 hours on their best diamonds, though not sure how much science is behind the claim, or whether it reflects current thinking ...

    Due to the quality of the quality, even hardness and polish of our diamond styli, life can be expected to be on the order of 2,000 to 3,000 hours against the normal life expectancy of 500 to 1,000 hours for a normal diamond stylus.

    https://audiofederation.com/dealership/audionote/pricelist05012004.htm
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021 at 5:18 PM
    Tourswede likes this.
  7. Tourswede

    Tourswede Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    Interesting. I think many years ago someone convinced me that tip wear doesn’t just show up. That it’s something you usually pick up on as it’s wearing out. Speech, S sounds amongst others. I think I’m a fairly critical listener most of the time so I’d hope I would pick up on these things. Who knows though right?
     
    Davey likes this.
  8. Davey

    Davey NP: Broadcast ~ Haha Sound (on repeat, as usual)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Yea, it's hard to pick up on the cues without a direct comparison, I would think by the time you are hearing mistracking in sibilants and the like, there is potential record damage. I recently bought a new OC9XML cartridge on sale before sending in my old one for trade, and was kind of surprised how much it had lost in sparkle and imagery in direct comparison with the old one (well, direct, as in a few minutes between listens). Even though I knew it was pushing it at around 1500 hours or so on the MicroLine tip, there was no outward sign that it was worn that I could discern from normal listening. But I may just not be listening critically enough most of the time, we are all different, but I'm keeping much better account of the hours now :)
     
    patient_ot and Tourswede like this.
  9. Vibrolux_Reverb

    Vibrolux_Reverb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Orleans, LA

    Saying the performance ceiling is low for MM is objectively false. MC may have more potential (especially with high end products) but there are plenty of MM carts that can wow audiophiles with very high end taste.
     
    brucej4, mackat, Tim Irvine and 5 others like this.
  10. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    The Ortofon 2M Black didn't come close. Possibly the Clearaudios? Never heard them. If you know of one please share.
     
    Doctor Fine likes this.
  11. Tourswede

    Tourswede Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    very good point! Maybe I should make an effort at some stage to try and get a more accurate hour count on my cart and see if I need to do anything about it. Still… music all sounds so good I really don’t want to create a problem where there isn’t one.
     
  12. Davey

    Davey NP: Broadcast ~ Haha Sound (on repeat, as usual)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    We've been talking some in this thread about the Audio Note IQ3, which is based on the Goldring 1000 series cartridge. They use the tapered titanium tube cantilever from their higher up MC carts, along with their own stylus shape (the lower models use aluminum cantilever and FG stylus), apparently it can go up against comparably priced LOMC carts. But I think a lot of it is just driven by marketing, you could make a better MM/MI cart by moving away from the plugin plastic stylus and going with a more substantial body, add exotic cantilever materials and other features normally reserved for the higher end LOMC carts, but then who would buy it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021 at 5:45 PM
    avanti1960 likes this.
  13. Danilo

    Danilo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milano Italy
    I have the same TT with the same cart and stylus as yours, and almost the same, amp, I have the AS1000; I bought the Pro-Ject dsd2 tube box, which allows to choose the capacitance between 50, 100, 220, 320 PF, and I found that the Virtuoso requires a low capacitance to sound tonally balanced, 50Pf is the sweet spot. All this to suggest you to buy a low apacitance phono stage to evaluate your cartridge at the best of her possibilities, believe me, on this cartridge more than with others, the correct capaitance is the line between good sound and not bad, IMHO.
     
    aunitedlemon likes this.
  14. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    The A-S1100 already is 100p. With simply a short and low capacitance cable, it should be adequate (although an adventurous person could remove the load caps, located right behind the phono input jacks).
     
  15. jeffrey75

    jeffrey75 Active Member

    Location:
    Kansas City

    I had a very similar experience going from a Dynavector DV-20X2L with Soundsmith retip with ruby cantilever/nude line contact diamond to a vintage MM Stanton 981 HZS with original cantilever retipped with a ultra low mass line contact diamond. They both are very good when set up and loaded right no doubt about that, my Dynavector has a polished detailed oriented sound, my Stanton sounds more like live music to me. For me my Stranton has plenty of detail, some other audiophile attributes too, but it clearly render's complex passages with out getting hung up on pulling every last detail from every note and I really prefer it that way.
     
    Soundsense likes this.
  16. RemyM

    RemyM Forum Resident

    Music Maker 3, LVB 2M Black, decca?
     
  17. LARGERTHAN

    LARGERTHAN Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eire
    The Yamaha MM side alone is superior to the MC, which itself is no slouch, but somehow the MC headamp seems to diminish the performance somewhat - it sounds a little harder, less open and slightly less dynamic than the MM alone.

    Like the OP, I found the MM side superb. Herb in his 3200 Stereophile review also noted he cannot imagine someone being dissatisfied with MM preamp.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 6:51 AM
  18. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    Well the MC is the MM+MC gain. So Even though you like the MM, when it is combined with the additional gain of the MC circuit, it is not so good. Sounds like SUT time.
     
  19. Mike70

    Mike70 Forum Resident

    What is a decent SUT for the Audio Technicas OC9?

    Some ebay builded product?
    Rothwell?

    ... curious about the new Darlington Labs product, but it will be a headamp, not a SUT
     
  20. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Well, if the A-S1100's MM stage is good - why not just get a SUT, or a good head amp, and connect it to that?
     
  21. Gasman1003

    Gasman1003 Forum Diplomat.

    Location:
    Liverpool, England
    I'd investigate an Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250.

    Wonderful sounding MM cartridge with the added convenience of being able to replace the stylus in 2 seconds when required.

    I have had mine for 3 months, upgraded from a standard 2M Black, and it is simply brilliant.

    Ortofon Hi-Fi 2M Black LVB 250 MM Cartridge Review
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 8:23 AM
    Doctorwu likes this.
  22. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine Meat and Potatoes all day long

    The difference between MM and MC is pretty obvious.
    MC is like a real girl.
    MM is like one of those girls you take out of a box and blow up.
    Now---I shall simply stand right here and munch my popcorn while I wait for a response...
     
  23. Davey

    Davey NP: Broadcast ~ Haha Sound (on repeat, as usual)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    The A-S1100 also has a 220pF cap on the input of MM phono stage.
     
    Danilo likes this.
  24. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    s1004 for US/JP receivers; S1001 instead for 220v destinations (loading grounded inside chassis ground isolation instead of analog ground)

    [​IMG]

    ones you circled on the left on this post are instead output capacitance on the MC boost stage. But yes, looks like those are also in parallel, after 1047 ohms resistance.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 11:04 AM
  25. Davey

    Davey NP: Broadcast ~ Haha Sound (on repeat, as usual)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    I know, but there is also a 220pF in parallel with 47kohm at the MM input.
     

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