To get back to your original question. I would mix one drop of Tergikleen in 8 ounces of water. Pour half in your container and then pour the remaining half down the drain. You are wasting one half drop each time. Really, I wouldn't bother with the Tergikleen and buy a small amount of 15-S-9 from Talas online and just use that. It is very close to what the LOC recommends. The S-3 is oil soluble and doesn't help you out much if at all unless you like milky solutions on your records
I don’t mean this to sound snarky, but I explained my negative LJC experience in the post you replied to and can’t really add anything to what I already said.
The Ilford Ilfotol is very similar to TergiKleen, so it'd be strange if one could be rinsed off and the other couldn't, and I hadn't heard that criticism before. I'm curious to hear others' experiences with LJC now. The alcohol isn't why the solution won't rinse off for you, though I agree their formula uses too much of it. Probably 5-10% is sufficient. Did you try vacuuming off the LJC formula or just towel/air dry?
TergiKleen is not similar to ILFORD-ILFOTO. As I wrote earlier in this post "Tegikleen is by the material safety data sheet, a blend of Tergitol 15-S-3 which is an 'oil soluble' (not water soluble) nonionic surfactant and Tergitol 15-S-9 which is a 'water soluble' nonionic surfactant. Need to be careful with Tergikleen, too high a concentration and the 15-S-3 can come out of solution." Assuming the TergiKleen blend is 50:50 Tergitol 15-S-3 & Tergitol 15-S-9, a solution of 10-20 drops (equal to 0.5 to 1.0 ml) per gallon (~3800 ml), the concentration of Tergitol 15-S-9 will only be ~130 ppm (0.013 wt%), which is only 2X the critical micelle concentration (CMC); enough to reduce the solution surface tension - making it a wetting solution, but not enough to achieve good detergency. You can read/download Section VIII of the the paper Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records for a good explanation of how surfactants work -Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records - The Vinyl Press . The Tergitol 15-S-3 is not water soluble and consequently does not provide any "wetting" function. It will with the Tergitol 15-S-9 form an emulsion that can have some oil type soil solubility capability. As I previously said in this post, ILFORD-ILFOTOL is a blend of one water soluble nonionic surfactant that is likely Stepan™ BIO-SOFT™ N25-7 or N25-9 that is very similar to either Tergitol 15-S-7 or 15-S-9 (both of which are water soluble), plus a very small amount of a safe biocide. The ILFORD-ILFOTOL as delivered is a 20:1 diluted solution, and as addressed in the paper Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records Section VIII mixed 200:1 will yield a nonionic-surfactant concentration as high as 0.025% which could be near the lowest usable concentration for its intended purpose as a single point of use, photographic wetting agent, but not much detergency. For detergency, you would need to increase the concentration to 0.05 to 0.1 wt% (same as 10 to 20 mL to one-liter DI water) to get the micelle reserve required for detergency. Note that ILFORD-ILFOTOL provides no specific anti-static function. If you read the paper Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records Section X it addresses chemical anti-statics - the common being ammonium salt antistatic additives or sprays that form a micro-layer of water (absorbing from the air - so they are humidity dependent) making the vinyl record ‘dissipative’. Otherwise, any time you wet-clean a record (or any surface), it functionally removes the static charge - there are cleanroom anti-static sprays that are nothing more than a blend of DI water and IPA. Blending ILFORD-ILFOTOL with 20% IPA (alcohol) does not make a lot of sense chemically. If you read the paper Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records Section VIII there is a long discussion on IPA. A 20% IPA-water solution provides the same 'wetting' capability as the ILFORD-ILFOTOL at 200:1. But, unless the ILFORD-ILFOTOL is mixed at least 100:1, the detergency that the non-ionic surfactant 'can' provide is not achieved - so why add it to the IPA? And, there is info that indicates that when IPA is mixed with surfactants, there can be some odd reactions since the solution boiling point may increase countering the drying benefit. HOWEVER, for a 20% IPA-water solution, the vapors are highly flammable, and using that high a concentration in any electrified device (RCM or UCM) that is not specifically designed for use with flammable solutions is a fire risk. Yes, I know many have used these flammable solutions without incident - YET! How much do you trust the equipment manufacture?, and consider that as the equipment ages - the risk increases because clearances increase and the risk of a spark increases - be careful. Note as addressed in the paper - the flammability of IPA-water vapor exists as low as 2%. PS/The paper also addresses the Kodak product, and as the author, as the paper addresses - I am not getting into formulating any cleaning agents and professionally I will not recommend any product that I consider hazardous; you take any risk you wish - I have a healthy respect for what I cannot see. Hope this helps the conversation; and stay well. Neil
So you don't like TergiKleen for cleaning records (too weak), you don't like Ilford-Ilfotol (too weak/not anti-static), or IPA (fire hazard at higher concentrations). So... what do you like?
@Joel Shapiro, I did not say I do not like ILFORD-ILFOTOL, and in the paper Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records Section XI, I recommend it as a final cleaner (mixed to achieve 0.1 wt%) as an alternative to Tergitol 15-S-9 (at 0.1 wt%). If you can buy Tergitol 15-S-9 from Talas, its delivered as a concentrated - undiluted NID so it is much cheaper. As specified in the paper, I recommend Alconox Liquinox as a pre-cleaner (if you need pre-cleaning) for the reasons as stated, and I recommend no anti-static solution because it leaves a coating on the record, and all of this is documented in the paper, but you have to read the paper.
I've never heard of your paper. How am I supposed to read it without a link? UPDATE: Never mind. I found it myself. I had no idea what you were talking about. Don't assume everybody has heard of this. I'll read it now.
There's a link in his post which takes you to a website with a giant red box that says "click here to download the paper".
Your system is too complicated, involves too many steps, and takes too long — for me. But I appreciate the effort you put into writing it, and thank you for contributing.
To each his own. Listening to this format is very rewarding if proper steps are taken. Shortcuts won't cut it.
I switched from Audio Intelligent Vinyl Solutions 3-step fluids to TergiKleen a year ago. It's been pretty fantastic. I mixed 20 drops of TergiKleen into a gallon jug of distilled water and shook vigorously, then poured some into an old AIVS dispenser bottle. From there I use TergiKleen with a VPI 16.5 vacuum cleaner, and then the record goes into a Klaudio ultrasonic cleaner for a a final rinse and clean. The TergiKleen has worked dramatically better than the AIVS for me. I do high-res vinyl rips and then clean the audio by doing a "deep listen" with Adobe Audition and a set of good headphones, and I've found the audible difference after switching from AIVS to TergiKleen quite noticeable. And it's an incredible bargain. I just yesterday finished the original gallon I mixed over a year ago and whipped up a fresh gallon batch...so 28 more batches to go according to the TergiKleen package. It'll go bad way before I can use all of it (although the TergiKleen person I emailed said that they were pretty sure the 2-year shelf life is "just Dow Chemical covering their behinds"). Not bad for $29!
Same experience for me...but using a Triton X-100 formula that replaced Down With Dirty from Audio Intelligent. Just goes to show you don't have to invest a lot of money in cleaning fluid to get superior results.
It has been a long time since this posting, however this product (or home-made equivalent) is being discussed on the Degritter discussions right now and you may wish to join in. A question I have for you is have you looked at the possible toxicity to aquatic life that used Tergikleen may be when dumped down the drain? After reading the DOW materials sheets for Tergitol 15-S-3 and 15-S-9 (Tergikleen) I contacted the environmental protection agency here in the UK and am awaiting response from their scientists. While waiting I have stopped using these chemicals completely. Also, with the Degritter, there is fan drying after cleaning, so I am wondering if being dried first is why subsequent rinse cycles with pure distilled water doesn't seem to remove any residue from the previously cleaned with Tergitol records. Any opinion?
Is there a way to do this quickly and easily, so that after washing I can switch tanks and do it again but with drying cycle added?
I thought I did after using it at the Canadian Commonwealth Institute (CCI) strength of one part per 100 parts water, but didn't rinse before drying. I thought sounded like Rosen on a bow string, more grip?
Yes. Turn the left knob to the left until it reads zero. Wash as normal. Put in rinse tank then turn left knob rack to right until desired dry time is set. Takes 10 seconds or so for the whole process.
Just put a fake company name on your address and request a sample from Dow website. I work in a lab and got a quart of Tergitol.
I tried that in order to get the 15-S-7 that the LOC recommends. They accepted the order and then notified my a few days later they were cancelling it. I ended up having a friend that worked in a defense contracting machine shop order it for me. If I ever run out, I'll just switch to the S-9 which is accesable from Talas Online.
Any chance you can guess why they'd combine 15-S-3 (oil soluble) and 15-S-9 (water soluble), if the expected use is to dilute into distilled water? Are both compatible with alcohol?
Both should be soluble in alcohol; BUT, if you prepare a 2.5% IPA and then add a drop of 15-S-9 it will sink and not immediately breakup; whereas if you add a drop of 15-S-9 to water it breaks up immediately. The concept of using both is that the 15-S-3 'may' target some oils better than 15-S-9. This formula was first developed by the Canadians -see my paper Chapter IX Para IX.7. Note that the US Library of Congress does not use 15-S-3; they use 15-S-7 and this is addressed in the opening para Chapter II and the differences between 15-S-7 and 15-S-9 are discussed Chapter IX.
I've been using it for the first time in a Degritter. Unlike what I've used in the past it seems to leave a residue in the groove that is nearly impossible to get rid of. I'm using a concentration at the low end of the recommended range. I also have COPD and discovered that it can be quite toxic with prolonged exposure - like cleaning a bunch of records in an ultrasonic machine. I'm done with it.
