Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Deuce66, Jan 21, 2017.
Skinny? No "powers"?
Must've seen different movies.
I disagree. It's like saying that, to be a memorable romantic lead like Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman, or Clark Gable and Vivian Leigh, it doesn't matter if you're good looking. Maybe it would be nice if it didn't matter, but we'd have to be a different species than we are.
When it comes to action movies, it is not without reason that the biggest stars ever are huge muscular guys with little sentimentality or emotion, like Arnold or Rambo. These were organic movies that were made because it was noticed there was a male audience that wanted those kinds of characters, in those kinds of situations. Terminator 1 or 2 wouldn't have worked with a female in the Arnold role. It needed an Arnold. And female audiences wouldn't have flocked to see The Terminator even if Kyle Reese or Arnold had been gender-swapped.
Even memorable female characters in action movies, like Sarah Connor or Ripley, owe much of their impact to their maternal instinct, the way they protected a child in a way that it was felt a man wouldn't. Again, all those things are organic, they flow from the audience's natural expectations and wants. More recently, in Fury Road, Furiosa's decision to save the bad guy's wives is inherently linked to her being a woman: she saves them because she wouldn't want to be in their place.
In fact, the effectiveness of the "male ideal" in action movies is so unshakeable that you'll notice that in all action movies these days, the female leads are always basically male characters in a female body. They're "bad-ass", unsmiling, unfeeling, wise-cracking machines similar to any run-of-the-mill male action star from the past -- they just happen to be 5 foot tall and weigh 80 pounds, which I think blunts the impact.
Looking back on the first post in this thread posted Jan 21/2017, it seems like the idea of engaging "top-flight" science fiction authors was basically abandoned in exchange for following the Star Wars - Force Awakens template which is something any one of us posting in this thread could've come up with before the appetizers were done. It's been a couple of days since I saw the movie and quite frankly nothing about it has made a lasting impression. This is the team responsible.
Tim Miller ... (directed by)
James Cameron ... (story by)
Charles H. Eglee ... (story by)
Josh Friedman ... (story by)
David S. Goyer ... (story by)
Justin Rhodes ... (story by)
David S. Goyer ... (screenplay by) &
Justin Rhodes ... (screenplay by) and
Billy Ray ... (screenplay by)
Yes, and it was perfectly organic to their characters and their situation. Ripley was a mother whose child was being threatened by a rival mother. Sarah Connor was a desperate woman who was cornered by a "male" aggressor. Their behavior made sense and every guy in the audience thought "that's absolutely how my girlfriend/my mother/my daughter would react in the same situation".
If those stories were made today, Newt would help Ripley kill the alien (because little girls must be shown to be courageous), Ripley would bash the (male) alien's head with her bare fist, and Kyle Reese would be an incompetent buffoon who dies in the first 15 minutes of the movie.
Always a bad sign when you see 10 guys worked on a script. It means the script was made up of disparate elements, with one guy saying, "we need a scene with a plane", and another saying, "now we need one more car chase".
Well, James Cameron never intended the original Terminator to be a Mr. Olympia sized character. And look at Robert Patrick in T2, he's the antithesis of an Arnie and yet it's an iconic character that I cannot imagine someone else pulling off. He's a smaller, athletic guy, and he completely owns the role.
The Terminator within the cultural context of 1984 didn't succeed merely because they had any old buff-dude playing the Terminator character, that role succeeded because it had Arnold Schwarzenegger and it became his break-out role. It was lightning-in-a-bottle. And guess what, Arnold's in the new movie too, sharing top-billing alongside Linda Hamilton. Without his character's sacrifice, everybody loses. His is the ultimate hero of the film (for better or for worse).
And the main villain is another guy (carrying nowhere near the charisma as Robert Patrick in this similar "liquid metal" role).
So yes, I disagree that the major flaw of this movie is it trying to push a female agenda. Elsewhere in Hollywood, with gawd-awful movies like the recent Ghostbusters, or Oceans 8 where the gimmick is taking a franchise and merely changing out the leads for female versions, sure, but Terminator: Dark Fate isn't one of them.
It would have been a nice twist in T2 if they had sent back a Kyle Reese clone as the liquid Terminator.
Biehn could have pulled it off.
As I’ve been saying for 30 years now, they need to remove Arnold from the equation. Having him return at all was implausible given the need for Terminators to remain anonymous. But having him return in every film since has been absolutely ridiculous. This series has long, long needed some freshness and bringing back actors whose glory days are well behind them was bound to bite the studio in the ass. Maybe now they’ll finally get it.
Just waiting for Cameron to disown this one, too, like he has the last three films.
Do you really think the biggest problem with this film was Arnold? What they did with his and Linda's characters was the only thing "new and fresh" about this movie the only thing that wasn't was that
he didn't survive the movie
He's got nothing to disown, he didn't make it. His name was attached only for marketing reasons.
Nope, he produced it and co-wrote the story. There's even an interview where he screams at the journalist that it was HIS idea to murder you-know-who at the beginning.
I couldn’t tell you what the biggest problem was because I haven’t seen the movie. But returning to the same old tired well again and again doesn’t exactly lend itself to advancing the story
I haven't seen it,but everything I've heard from those who have seen it and don't have some chip on their shoulders about "wamen taking ovah muh action franchise!" Tells me the problem with this film isn't "wokeness" or anything like it. The film simply is just bland and offers nothing new. It's the same old same old. And it just wasn't entertaining enough to warrant going to the theater to see it.
I saw someone imply a few posts ago if they would have just swapped in men in the lead roles replacing the female leads the movie would have worked or done better at the box office,but i don't think so. A turkey is a turkey regardless of whether the leads have male or female genitals. If the movie was good,it would have made money,simple as that. All I've heard so far from the online reviews from fair minded reviewers I trust and a couple buddies that saw it the other night tell me this was a big Thanksgiving turkey with all the fixings. Yeah it's probably better than the last couple,But that isn't a high bar at all.
I think it was simply the case of people rejecting another mediocre Terminator sequel after three in a row with diminishing returns each time. In order to have broken the streak it would have to have been amazing,as good as or better than T2. Maybe that was an unreasonable bar to cross, but it is what it is. It was just barely better than the last three,but it just wasn't good enough for most to blow $30 plus for a nite at the movies.
That being said,I'll probably watch it either when it gets to my local mom and pop theater for a matinee or Redbox it. I eventually want to see it to form my own opinion. My expectations are appropriately low though.
Seeing as you haven't seen the movie perhaps you shouldn't jump to that conclusion so quickly because what they did with Arnold was actually a pretty good idea and the movie probably would have been a lot better if it had focused more on it than the new characters.
Now I admit THAT would have been cool. If you got,Cameron Arnie and Linda back, they should have gotten Biehn back.
It would have made for a great early scene in T2 when/if Reese (Terminator) and Sarah were about to meet again/embrace (so she could be copied) and Arnold stepped out of the wings and blew him full of holes with the shot gun.
Wish folk would see the film before commenting, I mean ...
That's fair,and I probably myself shouldn't have commented until seeing it,but I guess I was getting annoyed with the "Get woke go broke!" Stuff already infiltrating this discussion when the "wokeness" stuff probably has very little to do with why the film is floundering. It seems to be floundering because simply it's the latest in a four movie streak of turkeys of varying degrees. Not because the leads are "Skinny women". Hell,id wager if this movie was off the charts good ,it probably would have had a low opening weekend until word of mouth gave it legs over the next few weeks.
For all I know I may end up liking it,but based on people I trust that have seen it, I'm not getting my hopes up.
Best to pick it up cheap on DVD I’m sure you will be pleasantly surprised
this is good and very funny... Great Youtuber and I really like his critique on most movies and series
They got Biehn back in a brief cameo in T2. They could have coaxed him back for a brief moment in this one. The Terminator we had in this one presumably can shape shift,so they could have easily had him take Reese's form before the reveal.
I'll probably see it this weekend actually. My local mom and pop theater is reopening under new ownership this weekend and they are keeping the ticket prices low. 7 bucks for a matinee and the popcorn and soda is cheap as well. If the film is a disappointing experience,at least It won't cost me much.
I enjoyed it myself, preferred it to Genisys(2015)
As I said, a better idea would have not brought back Arnold, period. I realize that some people have a nostalgia for the guy in these movies but I still stand by the opinion that this franchise would have been enormously improved had they replaced him after the first film. I’ve seen every single one of these movies in the theater except this one from the time I was 10 years old. After six films, I don’t think they’re going to shake up the formula enough to make me care again, and almost everything I hear doesn’t say otherwise. I’ll wait for Netflix. Should have did that with Genisys.
Nostalgia? Arnold's role in Terminator 1 and 2 is iconic it's not because people were nostalgic for Arnold this is a total misunderstanding on your part. The thing that made the second movie work isn't nostalgia it's that they took the bad guy from the previous movie and made him the good guy. It aimed for a fresh angle even though it's a very similar story, they also took the character of Sarah a human and made her become a Terminator while the Terminator was becoming human.
Movies need fresh ideas, not fresh casting, Terminator 3 not working wasn't because of Arnold but because it didn't really do anything new with the story, they just said: "What if the new Terminator was a woman and even MORE powerful". Terminator Salvation was a fresh enough idea but I think it was flawed in its execution or perhaps I need to revisit it. Genesys had potential because they had new ideas but they got distracted from the story and just focused on how to make cool-looking stuff happen on screen. I didn't like Arnold in this movie because I was "Nostalgic" I liked him in this movie because they did something different with him even though again they didn't use that different thing as much as they could have.
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