Testing out the PrimaLuna EVO 100 (but I’m a tube newb!)

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Lebowski, Oct 27, 2019.

  1. I also agree with this, I mean you have to like it in the first place to spend money on tubes for an amp that´s not even yours. Anyway, it´s a very versatile amplifier and fine tuning can be bigger than it seems with another model that doesn´t take that much variety of tubes.
     
    displayname likes this.
  2. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I would replace modern EL34's with KT77's. Which are usually a compatible change for amps that are intended to work with EL34's.

    For example, the PL Prologue Four is designed to be an EL34 based power amp, where the Five is better designed to use KT88's having a better power supply and a few other things.

    Usually output transformers in an amp are designed to work to their optimum performance, being designed to operate with a particular type of tube, even though other pin compatible tubes in the same family might also work with them.

    In order for a KT88 to preform as it is intended, it is by design a more powerful output tube than a EL34 and therefore requires more power, in order for it to deliver more power. The same goes for KT-120's, again requiring more power to produce more power than a KT88.

    KT77's are designed to be more of a drop in replacement for an EL34 and with modern production tubes, I think that they do sound better and have a better bottom end.

    I like the overall robustness of KT88's. But those who are accustomed to the sound signature of a EL34, may prefer the EL34, over the fuller sound that a KT88 produces.

    In an amp that can operate KT88's optimally, I would use a KT88 over a modern EL34 anyday (and twice on Sundays!).
     
    chipcalzada, bluemooze and Roycer like this.
  3. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    To the OP, a PrimaLuna producing 40 class A/B Watts. An amp weighing 40-pounds is perfectly fine.

    One of my Rogue M-150, 150-Watt monoblocks weighs 55-lbs. But it is a more powerful amp and each monoblock runs a quad of KT88's, so it has more iron, but then, it has to.

    While you might not be familiar with class "A" single ended amps, they are a more simple design than a class A/B amp, but to get them to perform well, they need quite a bit of iron and all components have to be very high quality.

    The line Magnetic 845 based 518iA produces 22-Watts, but the 845 power tubes require a plate voltage of 1,000 volts. This amp weighs 77-lbs.

    The type of class that an amp is, does have a large determination of the weight of the amp, owing mostly to the amount of iron (transformers) in the amp.
     
    bluemooze likes this.
  4. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    PrimaLuna amps do sound excellent, right out of the box, but the beauty of a tube amp is that you can change the tube and change the sound signature of the amp.

    As the OP indicated, he did find that the amp did have a tendency toward a brittle sound, which if the amp is the problem, might be rectified by replacing a couple of small signal tubes with NOS tubes.

    Small signal tubes are not that expensive, NOS (generally speaking) as compared to larger power tubes. While they might cost more than new signal tubes of modern manufacture, they will likely last longer and it is not unlikely that they will last you many years.

    As to the power tubes, most NOS power tubes are unobtanium, one of the few major exceptions are NOS EL34's, which will definitely give his amp a far different audio profile, than using modern EL34's.

    If using modern tubes, I would stick with KT77's or KT88's. I found the stock KT88's in my PL Prologue Five to be quite acceptable with my speakers.

    I think the tube profile needs to match the speaker profile, more than anything else.

    Which does include the power profile, which ever amp you go with, needs, first of all to have enough power to properly drive your speakers.
     
    bluemooze likes this.
  5. chipcalzada

    chipcalzada Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Philippines
    @SandAndGlass well said. If I had more sensitive speakers (mine are 86db) maybe the KT77's wouldn't have sounded so underwhelming, learning a lot from this thread!

    To the OP, looking forward to what your final decision will be.
     
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  6. Lebowski

    Lebowski Hey, careful man, there's a beverage here! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Greater Boston
    I’m bringing it back to dealer tomorrow morning and looks like I’m not going to buy one. The idea of rolling tubes is intriguing but it’s an unknown. There’s a lot to like here, but ultimately it’s not for me. Although I do like that remote control!

    I did think about going back to Rogue, with a Cronus Magnum III. The CMII I tried is what set me on the tube voyage, but it had a lot of noise. I thought maybe the III would be better, but there’s enough people here on the forum discussing noise issues with it, so probably not.

    Probably going back to Team Solid State, haha. Maybe I’ll look into Line Magnetic. Maybe.

    Thanks to all for the input. It’s been interesting and educational.
     
  7. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Lifting the ground won't do squat for the CMII hum. Whatever was the cause of your experience with the hum, it was identical to my experience. There was no alleviating it, not with quiet tubes, lifting the ground, DC blockers or power conditioning. I went through two brand-new examples, each had the same issue.

    I wouldn't give up on tubes just yet. There are many great amps out there that neither hum or sound bright/harsh. Tube rolling doesn't have to be a chore. All it takes is a call to Andy at Vintage Tube Services. I don't bother experimenting with an endless variety. I usually just call Andy and he gets me great tubes at a fair price, and they're always, always better/smoother/quieter than new-production tubes. I wouldn't be surprised if $100 worth of NOS tubes would completely transform that PL integrated.

    Also, keep your eyes peeled for a used Cayin A88T or one of its derivatives. They are incredible bargains at their secondhand prices and will really exhibit what tube sound is about, more so than the CMII and likely the PL you're auditioning. It's the one amp I really can't ever see myself parting with.
     
  8. chipcalzada

    chipcalzada Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Philippines
    If you decide to give integrated tube amps a second try I think you won't be disappointed with either the Line Magnetic or Cayin. LM is known to be more dynamic sounding compared to Cayin which has a more relaxed sound. Both are excellent value for the money and solid performers.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  9. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    Finding equipment you want to keep is a chore. I'm not a fan of A/B anything.
     
    IanL likes this.
  10. Yeah well, maybe you're not a tube guy, or maybe the amp wasn't the one. On one hand I think you should have gone higher in the PL line, maybe the cheapest model that features Triode-Ultralinear switch, like I said before, also because anyway most of the components are better quality.

    But it has to catch you out of the box, knowing that from that moment on, it will always get better, but you have to be happy with the sound out of the box.

    For me it was like that, and after 2 months I started tube rolling. Not only that, about 6 months ago, that is 8 months after I got my PL, I got 2 more small tube amps for other small rooms I have because I decided to go all 100% tube at home.
    Amps are smaller, and way much cheaper, but having completely retubed them, I still prefer those to any of the solid state amps I had in my life (none of them were expensive stuff anyway), so go figure. That's why on the other hand, I think any PL model would do the trick for me, and not just the most fancy models.
     
  11. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    None of the Rogue amps should have hum issues. I note that @Helom has experienced issues. My CMI nor my monoblocks have had hum issues and with high sensitivity horn speakers, believe me that you do not want to have hum issues with them.

    Yes, you can hear a minute amount of hum, with most any tube amp, regardless of the brand, if you put your hear up close to the speaker, but you should never experience hum issues with any quality tube amp, from the seating position.

    I believe that deciding on tube amplification or not, is highly dependent on the speakers that you are using. Most modern speakers are designed to sound good with SS amps and many of them will benefit from amplifier's with higher power and the capability of delivering plenty of current and can drive 4-Ohm speakers, even if the speakers you are driving are 8-Ohms.

    I only power the Altec's, the vintage Klipsch La Scala's and the Zu, Omen Definitions with tube amplification (and maybe the vintage Wharfedale's, from the 60's). All of my other speakers, I drive exclusively with SS amplification.

    Most normal direct radiator design speakers do not really benefit from tube amplification the way high sensitivity speakers do,, which are usually horn loaded designs (noting that there are many exceptions to this).

    I think that it is better for you to decide what type of amplification and power will work best with your speakers and in your listening environment, than arbitrarily going with tube amplification.
     
    latheofheaven likes this.
  12. MichaelArcane

    MichaelArcane Purveyor of Terrible Opinions

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Similar line of thinking here. There's nothing wrong with OP saying "yeah, I don't see myself being a tube-head." And there's also nothing wrong with saying "this didn't grab me my balls stock, so I don't want to buy with the hope tube rolling does it for me."

    I've never owned a tube amp before the PL, but I was set on one. I'd heard them before in other systems, and I've been around enough great guitar amps, microphones and outboard recording gear in my day to know what magic tubes imparts to the output sound of gear. There's a certain romance aspect involved as well, listening to music passed through something built in the 1940s that is going to disappear forever someday once the tube dies and stocks are gone.

    But to say that is for everyone? Crazy. OP may be much happier with SS gear, and that's great. It's about his ears and nothing else.
     
    G B Kuipers likes this.
  13. MichaelArcane

    MichaelArcane Purveyor of Terrible Opinions

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Great advice. When I was building my system, I had chosen the amp first, and when I was heavily leaning towards the GoldenEars I spoke to the folks at PrimaLuna to get their opinion on matching them, and they told me they had just completed some shows where they were using the GEs in their demo room. That gave me a lot of confidence in the synergy.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  14. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    All depends on the speakers that you are running. I don't have any issue with A/B amps, having both tube and SS.

    I don't think that the SS ones particularly pair well with the Altec A7's, so I stick with tube A/B amps with the Altec'

    I think that having high sensitivity horn speakers brings on the other possibilities of single ended class "A" amps, but those who have less sensitive speakers, lower powered single ended amps are not as good of a match as a decent class A/B amp with more power and greater dynamics (when used with less sensitive speakers).

    Although I feel that single ended amplification does provide that extra special something special with the A7's, The other A/B amps I have used, all perform fine, both the new and the vintage models.

    My nice little 20-Watt Fisher 222C uses power tubes in the EL84 family and is a very nice sounding A/B amplifier.

    I'm very fond of the Audio Note L4 Kit amp that is EL34 based. Running it with NOS RFT EL34 power tubes, puts it very close to the single ended amps.
     
  15. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I get zero hum with my Cayin, even with my ears smack against the grills of my Heresys. Might be because they use heavily-potted transformers, idk, but the amp is possibly even quieter than my Yamahas. I used to think it was dirty power causing hum in the CMIIs but I finally got Mark O'Brien to admit the Cronus just hums due to its very large power transformer... My Yamaha has an equally large EI transformer and it doesn't hum any, so not sure what to make of that. Some I've spoke with claim Rogue just uses cheap transformers.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  16. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I suspect that it is more of an issue when running the kind of output power that Rogue amps produce than with lower power tube amps.

    Pushing 100-150 Watts through a transformer is quite a bit different than 40-Watts.
     
  17. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    IDK. The Atlas Magnum, as tested by Stereophile, fell well short of producing 100 watts. My Cayin is rated at 55 watts/ch in Ultralinear mode but seems every bit as powerful as the CMII did. I run the KT88s somewhat hard too, at 400mV.

    What I wonder is why the CMIII features a lower noise floor if the predecessor's noise was typical for a tube amp. The Rogue ST-100 only produced hiss through my speakers but its power transformer still hummed. That leads me to believe the CMII circuit has a major design flaw and the transformer isn't the sole culprit. In speaking with Mr. MO, I got the impression he expected most buyers of the CMII to pair it with speakers of fairly low sensitivity, like <86db. Maybe they made some unpublished changes in parts quality at some point during its lifespan. I know they've done that with other pieces.

    But to get back on topic, I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with preferring SS amps. I was only trying to point out that a good tube amp will sound like an improvement over very good SS, unless maybe it's uber-expensive SS.

    I only chose SS monoblocks for my main rig because of the inconvenience, heat, and cost of dealing with the number of power tubes that comparable output would require. Whether the OP sticks with tubes or SS, I think his best bet for a a true upgrade is a move to separates.
     
    Benzion likes this.
  18. Andy Saunders

    Andy Saunders Always a pleasure never a chore

    Location:
    England

    Good posting.
     
  19. gguy

    gguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wildomar, CA
    What do you guys think of the older PL Prologue amps? There's a pair of Prologue 6 monoblock's near me for pretty cheap and I'm a bit intrigued with how they stack up with current PL offerings.
     
  20. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    My first tube amps, were my Rogue M120 monoblocks, which I bought used and upgraded to the M150's. I only bought the used CMI as a back up, in the event that I had to send one of the monoblocks in for service.

    From there I bought a Stereo 90 because it had a quad of KT88 power tubes, instead of the quad of KT88's in each of the monoblocks. I was attempting to downsize my tube expenditures which were running me $360/yr. with the monoblocks, running them quite a bit everyday. That was with using Rogue's stock inexpensive Electro Harmonic's at $40 each.

    Before moving to the single ended tube amps, I played with vintage tube integrateds, a vintage Fisher 500C receiver and to the lower powered 30-40 Watt range modern production power amplifiers.

    My move to the lower power amplifier's was not driven by any quest for better sound, but for decreased tube operating expenses.

    I have always used large powerful SS amplifier's with Altec's, even though they have a high sensitivity of around 100-dB. I was actually quite happy with the sound of my original M-120's, maybe even more than the more powerful and more linear M-150's. I would run the M-120's in the triode mode at 60-WPC.
     
    Helom likes this.
  21. Lebowski

    Lebowski Hey, careful man, there's a beverage here! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Greater Boston
    I’m kinda wondering if speakers are the issue. I’m toying with idea of trying a pair of Zu Omen Dirty Weekend II with a Primaluna. Any thoughts on how those get along with each other?
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  22. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    After I removed the PL Prologue Five from the Altec's, I dedicated it to the Zu Omen Definition's. Good pairing overall and a good amp to drive the Omen Definitions. The Zu's are very sensitive and dynamic and play to a high power level with moderate sized amps like the PL's.

    I have the older drivers in my original Omen Definitions, the new speakers use the newer 10" driver and a new tweeter. My biggest issue with the Zu's were their tweeters, which I found still to be harsh with dynamic music, even after switching to tubes. Generally speaking, Jazz, Vocals and Instrumentals play very well with Zu's.

    The Dirty Weekends are an excellent value and hard to touch with any commercially available speaker in their price bracket.

    High sensitive speakers which are very dynamic and forward pair well with low to moderate power tube amps. Providing, that you enjoy a dynamic, forward and live type of presentation. Not everyone does.

    Member @Benzion has a PL Prologue Four with EL34 output tubes that he has run with Dirty Weekends, maybe he an venture a comment or so.
     
    Lebowski likes this.
  23. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Your speakers, your room (still the high ceiling open room correct?) and the 40WPC tube amp are a problem. Your speakers and a more powerful amp (SS or tube) will not be a problem.
    The Zu Audio will definitely work well with the P/L in your room but their sound is not for everyone. They have a polarizing sound that tends to do better with certain music than others as S&G has mentioned above. They are on the opposite side of the spectrum from a smooth British monitor, for example.
     
  24. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I was wondering if these medium powered amps would have enough power to properly drive the OP's speakers?

    A Rogue Sphinx is a small amplifier, but it does delver 100-Watts of power. His KEF R700's are fairly large towers and they like a solid powerful amp. As specially when working in a room with high ceilings, where a good bit of power is needed to properly pressurize the room with lower frequencies. Probably about 2/3 of your amps power is being directed toward the lower frequency range. Mids and the HF's don't really require that much power.

    The music is very important, as is running the Zu's with a tube amp as opposed to SS, which will impart them a more harsh quality. I say this as someone who had run them with SS amps for a few years, owing to Zu stating that they work equally well with tube and SS. I found that I don't agree with Zu on this point.

    Zu does tend to be one of those speakers that people are not on the fence about. People either like them of they do not, there is very little "in the middle".

    As, avanti1960 points out, you will definitely not confuse them with a British monitor type speaker, which is an entirely different animal.

    The main issue I have with the Zu's is their tweeter, which will tend to be harsh with music genera's like heavy metal, which the OP does listen to.

    I think some sort of tweeter attenuation might definitely be called for.
     
  25. Lebowski

    Lebowski Hey, careful man, there's a beverage here! Thread Starter

    Location:
    Greater Boston
    So I went back to the dealer today.

    I've never been into pricey cables and interconnects but he suggested I just give it try on my existing system. So I brought home a decent power cable, interconnect, and speaker cable. Couldn't hurt.

    We also discussed the possibility that maybe the R700 aren't really the right speaker for me after all, which I had (sadly) been thinking. I listened to the Primaluna again through a pair of the JBL L100 Classic and was really, really enjoying it. I didn't bring them home to demo though. The dealer said he'd give me back ~70% of what I paid for the R700 as trade-in towards other speakers (100% if I buy something at least twice the price of the KEFs). But that would still be too much if I were to buy an amp too. So that's not gonna work out. The JBLs were cool though.

    Anyhow, I did bring home the Primaluna again to try with the various cables. It is growing on me.
     

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