The All Purpose Beach Boys "Heroes and Villains" thread

To me it's commerciality or lack thereof is interesting as part of the narrative of SMiLE -- I do think that trying to make H&V a hit is part of what broke Brian...but I don't really care. I don't really judge music on it's ability to storm the charts. The fact that it still made it to #11 is testament to the power that Brian and the SMiLE hype still had in my opinion.

 

Good Vibrations was a MASSIVE accomplishment being a commercial and artistic statement. Any follow up was going to be compared to such a showpiece and while Heroes on it's own was incredible, it was always in the shadow of Good Vibrations which is unfortunate.

 

This podcast is full of interesting details, including some background on the infamous "Sonny Down snuff" line that Mike objected to. It was actually a reference to a type of cigar, so it's like the narrator is looking back on his life and snuffing out a cigar at the end of day.

 

Makes sense, but Good Vibrations had huge sections you could hardly dance to either. H&V just isn't as good a song though I guess.

 

As for Bruce Johnston's observation...well, it's certainly no "Won't Somebody Dance with Me".

 

Uh that’s Vegetables, not Heroes.

 

No wonder I couldn’t remember which version of Heroes and Villains that was.

 

Whichever is the version that's the bonus live track on the Concert/Live In London CD. Second place would be the "In The Cantina" version.

 

Heroes was the song that destroyed Smile - Brian’s obsession with it, his desire to turn it into a 2 part single, and his inability to finish it to his satisfaction resulted in the album being abandoned. As far as his original vision for the song during Smile, the 2 part version on TSS best represents what might have been - in mono, since part 1 (cantina) is only available in mono.

But my favorite version is none of the above - it’s the 2001 Hawthorne stereo mix of the single. Alan and Mark restored the Smile elements of the track and muted the Smiley organ overdubs. It has the “spook” of the original sessions.

 

I was liking this podcast very much at the beginning and listened through a great deal of the SMiLE shows and then - much like the SMiLE sessions in 66/67 - kept dragging on...and on...and on...and on...

I think they're on their 9th or 10th episode and only doing one per month. I'm totally checked out. Why do we need a years worth of "reaction" to SMiLE? It's overkill and silly.

Having said that, I will get back on board once they move on because I want to see how they get more than 30 minutes of show content for albums after Holland.

 

Sail On is one of the best, if not the best, pop music podcasts going. It's a staggering accomplishment that treats the group with the seriousness and attention to detail most people reserve for the Beatles or Dylan. You can find hundreds of music podcasts to give you capsule album reviews if that's your thing.

I'd have a hard time making a podcast series about Smile that was less than six hours and still do any justice to the subject matter.

 

I actually think these podcast episodes are very much needed. There's been a lot of misinformation and misconceptions about the Smile sessions over the years. It's really great to have such a detailed and accurate account of the period, one which sums up all the evidence and clears up the myths, and doesn't veer too far into speculation/theorizing.

(Although if you're not a big fan of the actual music from the Smile sessions, then, yes, it might be a bit much.)

 

What's amusing about the Sail On Smile series is the number of times even hardcore superfans have to admit they have no idea what Brian was trying to accomplish with much of the session work. The amazing thing about the era, contra the narratives, is the amount of unquestioning support Brian received from his band and label over the year of the album's non-creation.

 

One of my favorites as well, and I recompiled a BWPS style stereo mix using the Hawthorne mix for some of the sections. I prefer Hawthorne for the verses and the 'vocal sections' (Children were raised, Sonny down snuff). For the chorus I can't really pick a winner between Hawthorne and 2011 so I used one of both. 2011 is somewhat cleaner and balanced, but Hawthorne is, like you mentioned, real 'spooky' which fits the music and lyrics of the chorus so well.

 

No, I'm a real big fan of the band, the music, the sessions...but this drawn out month...by month...by month...by month...

If they wanted to do a ton of episodes it may have been a better idea to record a bunch at one time (perhaps 6) and then release them every couple weeks if they wanted to space it out, allowing for the recording of new content. But this drawn out crap...I hate the pace.

And look - I know I sound like an super entitled a-hole. I get that and am well aware. This is free content and I should be happy, but my defense is this: I complain about things that I really like so I can hopefully contribute to the motion that will make them even better. It's not hate. It's just my need for more information and content. I can't get enough. So, on that note, I'm on pause with those guys until I can hear more episodes back to back.

 

My favorite BB song, and I have to admit, I really DO NOT like the full length "SMiLE" version and prefer the original Single/SS Mono version best. I find the stereo mix of this track to sort of bombard you, it's hard to listen to because you're completely surrounded from every direction with something different and I find it to not be as coherent as the mono. I also think the Cantina bit is best left out, as it doesn't really fit with the rest of the song and interrupts the flow of the rest of it when it cuts in and then cuts out.

 

I prefer the 2011 remix. Seems to have a little of everything.

The cantina version on the GV box set would be next

 

The Sail On podcasts are not the final word in Smile though - although they mostly admit that their opinions are just that they include some misinformation as well - the most glaring that Van Dyke was present for the April Vegetables sessions and that’s when the Van Dyke-Mike Love confrontation over lyrics occurred.

 

It is the BB single I like far better than Good Vibrations that I have grown tired of listening to.
H&V is not only an exceptional piece of music, but Van Dyke Parks' lyrics skyrocket the song into rare pop music nirvana.

I hate the live versions where Mike Love thought he had to add his little stupid nothings.

 

There's been an interesting bit of debate recently on other forums re: the date of Van Dyke leaving, though I can't recall if a date as late as April '67 was proposed.

 

I love to listen to this song in all its iterations. I like it that much. It never gets old. I can hear it in my head for a long time until reality presents itself and slaps it out of my head.

 

I wish we could have voted for more than one. I voted for Extended sections outtakes (Good Vibrations set), but it's because it added the "Cantina" section, among others. I could just as easily have voted for Alternate "Cantina" mix.


I'd loved the H&V 45 since the first time I heard it. But I hadn't played it in a long time when the Good Vibrations box set came out in 1993. When I heard the “Cantina” section, for what must have been the first time, it was like I’d died and gone to music heaven—“Heroes and Villains,” only better, only more. And what could be better than more of one of my favorite Beach Boys songs?

 

Is "Cantina" mix the version on the officially released Smile box from five or so years ago? I love that version. If that's the case, I'd first heard that version back in the late 1980s from a different less official source.

 

THE problem with the song, as it is, and I agree it’s not that good as it was originally recorded, is that, as an opening song leading into a songBOOK of an album, it had no balls. The recording screams out for a loud snare drum smacking away at the melody, but what Brian recorded sounds like a distant thin thing of a song that should have been a wall of sound. It should have ENVELOPED the listener but it just is like a dead fish.
If that would have been recorded differently then maybe history would have been different. Just listen to the opening of Sgt Peppers, loud full drums, beautiful stereo audience noise, quite different to Heroes and villains.
Beave

 

I like your point. However, "Heroes and Villains" was more of a composition than "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band." For example, I couldn't see the latter being sampled; but I can see "Heroes and Villains" being sampled. "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" was a quick, wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am type of song. It didn't have the means to thrive beyond two minutes, which is why "A Little Help from My Friends" complements it so nicely. It's no coincidence that Joe Cocker only focused on "A Little Help..." when he unleashed his superlative treatment of it at Woodstock. "Heroes and Villains" is ear candy and wasn't meant for people to dance to it--after all, the Beach Boys had already decided to move into a different direction. Both are very good songs.