The Band SHM “Flat Transfer” CDs vs Mofi /AF

That one you'd probably have to decide how you like it, original mix original tracklist or remix with added tracks. I'm guessing the MFSL SACD would be preferred by many; it is the original mix and LP tracklist however if that matters. I go to it over the deluxe edition myself which is maybe mixed a little hot and in your face for my taste, the crowd noise bugs me on it also (but no doubt can't be beat if you want the rest of the show); there are also DVD-A, hi res and Blu-ray of this mix which I think took over what is out there since 2002 except the MFSL (not sure if it roughly the same remastering in each mainstream release since then however). I never had original CDs of this for whatever reason so I cannot speak to those.

 

Thank you very much. I would prefer original mix and original tracklist so I will look for the MFSL SACD. I currently have the DVD-A. Interesting that there isn't an SHM SACD, at least according to Discogs.

 

Thank you very much!!

 

Not sure if, by DSD program, you mean playing SACDs on an SACD player, but I do that as well as LPs and CDs. As hvbias said, I’ve worked long and hard on getting the best LP pressings when I can find/afford them, and I’ve found that killer-sounding LPs are oftentimes less expensive than some OOP SACDs. But as you mention there are also many instances where a CD or SACD option beat an LP sonically, or where I just want to pop in a disc and immerse myself in the music without having to flip sides.

 

Thanks @bmoregnr and @rxcory for your detailed analysis of these discs! I'll report back after I try out a few. I am surprised to read how strongly the SHM was preferred to the MFSL for Stage Fright. I thought Mofi did a wonderful job with Stage Fright. Same with Northern Lights. I can see how some find Rock of Ages and Cahoots too bright. I noticed that Shawn Britton mastered the latter two. I tend to prefer Rob LoVerde's mastering style to Shawn Britton's most of the time, and that seems to hold true for these Band releases.

 

After spending some time with these flat transfers I have to say they have become my go-to versions. @bmoregnr and @rxcory pretty much nailed the overall descriptions. I didn’t think the Mofi Stage Fright sounded as bad next to the SHM as @rxcory did, but I do prefer the SHM. Cahoots was an interesting one. On the majority of the tracks, the SHM is smoother and not as bright (and more enjoyable), but Last of the Blacksmiths, for example, has a very shouty, strident quality that the Mofi dealt with nicely.

The one big caveat for me here is the drastic inconsistencies of the volume levels on the Stage Fright SHM. The increase in level from Time to Kill to Just Another Whistle Stop is the kind of thing that can damage your equipment or your ears if you’re not ready for it. And it’s not like Time to Kill is supposed to be a quiet track. It’s one you turn up and boogie to, and when Just Another Whistle Stop came on after listening to Time to Kill at a high level it was pretty jarring. I’m mostly computer based anyway though, so I just used dBpoweramp to normalize the levels on each track for that album using the “peak to peak” setting. It basically just finds the loudest peak in the track, raises that to 0, and adjusts everything else accordingly. I also did this to my CP28 All Things Must Pass, and it has also made that disc a much more enjoyable listen. In fact, I think all of the SHM discs could stand to have the volume increased. What’s the point in not making full use of the CD’s volume capabilities? I don’t have super efficient speakers or a large amplifier, and sometimes the level of a disc can be the difference between listening at high volume clearly and hearing my system start to strain.

I still cannot make up my mind on S/T. The SHM and the AF sound very close to me.

I think Rock of Ages shows the largest difference. The horns on the SHM sound nice and warm, and you can really tell how much Shawn Britton cut the bass and boosted the highs on the Mofi.

I was very underwhelmed with the Stones flat transfers. Most of them have more clarity but at the expense of bass, which those albums need in my opinion. Exile was one of the worst CDs I’ve ever heard. I can’t believe how many people on this forum recommend that painfully thin and bright disc. What some people are willing to sacrifice for a small increase in dynamics is mind-blowing to me. Anyway, it was back to the 1994 Virgins for me... But that’s not the case with these Band discs. They sound very balanced and full and not lacking in bass. Overall, this is an amazing set. I just wish they paid a bit more attention to the volume levels, but maybe that goes against the “flat transfer philosophy”?

 

Agreed, those Rolling Stones flat transfers just did not deliver the goods. Bob Ludwig did the ABKCO and '94 Virgin CDs and that's where it's at for me as well.

 

Thanks for your impressions. I have only listened to the flat transferred SHM-SACD of The Band's self titled without any comparisons and I was extremely impressed with the sound quality. The resolution and midrange presence were great.

I have not heard the flat transferred release for Stage Fright or any of the Stones. For the albums I'm familiar with I don't think I have heard more than a few db difference between tracks.

If you like the Allman Brothers you must hear the flat transfer for Beginnings, this is a massive improvement in sound quality/mastering from the MFSL gold CD of Idlewild South, which sounds harsh and brittle.

 

The Band S/T SHM and the AF gold both sound wonderful and quite similar to me. The inclusion of the mono mix of Get Up Jake on the AF may just give it the edge for me. I found most of the Band SHM discs were rather quiet, but Stage Fright was the only one that had such drastic jumps from track to track.

Thanks for the Allmans tip. I have the Idlewild South gold disc, and it is brighter than other versions I’ve heard. Not nearly as bad as the Mofi Brothers and Sisters SACD. I got rid of that and went back to the old Polydor. What mix does the Beginnings SHM use for the first album? I was tempted to get an old Polydor of Idlewild South, but I’ve read there are some variations among pressing and maybe some NR and/or added reverb on some pressings. Enough confusion to not pursue it, so the SHM is intriguing.

 

I came to Idlewild South with an early matrix original yellow label Atco I bought on the forums soon after I joined here. The MFSL gold CD is the first version I heard on digital, and no comparison needed it just sounded poor, bright and harsh. Beginnings is using the original mix, there is no added reverb.

Interesting what you say about Brothers and Sisters, I have never compared that with any other version, and I don't think I ever will . I did buy the P33P from the classifieds but for the life of me can't remember how the MFSL SACD or P33P sound. IMHO I'm not the biggest fan of this album which might be why I didn't really care to compare them, for me this is when the real decline began. I'm not even sure if I listened to either actively or just played them in the background. I do know the original US LP sounds pretty murky, I can see how MFSL would try and compensate for that with some EQ in the treble.

Many of the SHM releases are on the quiet side, like you say I think this is as a result of them just being transferred flat, if you look at the credits in the booklet on where some of them were transferred and go to their studio website I get the impression these facilities are mainly intended for creating archival digital masters and not mastering facilities. I did email one of them and asked what they were using for a converter and it was a state of the art Merging.

 

Mo-Fi never did either Moondog Matinee or Islands but for those two I really like the 1990 Pastmasters CD's. they sound very nice to my ears.

 

That's one thing I don't like about the SHM SACD Sticky Fingers. Not sure I'd call it drastic, but the volume shifts from song to song were significant enough that I need to reset the volume for almost every song.

 

The Beginnings SHM uses the remix. The MFSL SACD is the original mix.

 

I have to recant my recommendation for these discs. I don't want someone to seek these out and spend a bunch of money because of what I've written here when there are cheaper or even in-print versions available.

After spending a few months with the SHMs and doing some more thorough comparisons, the only 2 I can recommend are Music From Big Pink and S/T, and even for those two I prefer the recent Mofi and AF, respectively.

The SHM transfers are very well done, and the tracks that didn't need anything but a nice, flat transfer sound great. But I kept finding things that need to be addressed by a mastering engineer, and they started to really bug me. Last of the Blacksmiths on Cahoots might be the worst offender. It is so strident and bright; it's practically un-listenable. The Mofi fixes this. I recall a few other tracks having similar issues that the Mofi fixed. A few tracks on Stage Fright (I didn't take notes and can't remember exactly which tracks) have a similar quality that has also been fixed on the Mofi. Other tracks sounded nearly identical between the 2. Overall I found the Mofi of Stage Fright to be a smoother listen. I think Rob LoVerde did a fantastic job on this title and Northern Lights. The SHM of Moondog just sounds a little muffled and a tad too bassy. The old Capitol CD sounds better to me. Northern Lights SHM sounds good. No real issue with that one, but I think the very small tweaks Rob made to that album make it sound a little more dynamic and less flat but definitely not bright. Islands SHM also sounds good for the most part, but Street Walker and Christmas Must Be Tonight stuck out to me as being too bright. I prefer the old Capitol CD for this one as well. Rock of Ages is a little too dull on the SHM and maybe a little too bright on the Mofi. Pick your poison there, or honestly just listen to the Clearmountain remixes.

Now for Big Pink and S/T:

Music From Big Pink SHM sounds very good. My only 2 complaints were the hi-hat that needs a bit of taming on We Can Talk - particularly at the beginning, and The Weight is a little too bassy and sounds kind of muffled and sucked out in the midrange. The recent Mofi tames the hi-hat a touch on We Can Talk and really brings out the mid-range on The Weight. The timbre of the vocals is so much better on the Mofi on that track. Quite a few tracks sound nearly identical. I find it odd that some people who like the SHM also like the Mofi gold and not the recent SACD. In my opinion the recent SACD is more similar to the SHM than the old Mofi gold. Not to mention the weird stereo image on the Mofi gold. There are also a number of tracks that run at different speeds, and I believe the recent Mofi is the correct pitch. I also like the level adjustments Shawn made to the channels on a few tracks to make things sound more centered and balanced - this is most noticeable on Tears of Rage. The vocals are dead center where on the SHM they are slightly left and the Mofi gold they are way left.

S/T is probably the best of all the SHMs. It sounds fantastic. I still haven't totally made up my mind, but I lean towards the AF. I don't hear anything that suggest a different or better tape was used for either version. The SHM is sharper, more analytic, but not necessarily brighter while the AF sounds a little warmer and softer, but not necessarily less detailed. I would guess these very small differences are mostly attributed to the tape machine and A/D converter used. I trust Steve used the equipment he felt suited the transfer best. Side note - the Mofi Brown album is very good as well, but the stereo image is screwed up on Up on Cripple Creek and Rockin' Chair is strangely dull and muffled. Maybe Shawn was trying to tame the hiss on that track? Either way, both of those tracks sound better on the SHM and AF even if the hiss is more audible.

In short, here are my preferences for the Band's studio catalog:

Music From Big Pink: MFSL SACD
S/T: AF gold
Stage Fright: MFSL SACD
Cahoots: MFSL SACD
Moondog Matinee: 1990 Capitol CD
Northern Lights-Southern Cross: MFSL SACD
Islands: 1990 Captiol CD

Overall I found all of the above versions generally have very small or no EQ adjustments, but they do fix the little things that need a little tweak here or there. Isn't that what we have mastering engineers for anyway?

 

On S/T I did end up level comparing them but I can't say I have a clear favorite, I like both presentations. For how much I love this album I don't mind having both, I think I can agree with you on the tape machine and A/D playing the major role, also I think the additional resolution of DSD helps.

Music For Big Pink I have held off hearing the MFSL SACD, the MFSL vinyl that came out around the same time was quite poor compared to an original pressing, which had more midrange presence. My interest in The Band drops off sharply after S/T so these are the only two I've paid close attention to.

 

Very glad to read this, as for all of The Band albums I own above (in bold), I have only your preferred mastering. Except for Stage Fright, where I own and I'm happy with the DCC.

 

I'm going with the Mo-Fi's for all the Capitol albums and The Last Waltz. Overall they did a great job IMO.

For Moondog Matinee and Islands, the 1990 Japan Pastmasters CD's are terrific.

 

Indeed! The Last Waltz is great sounding and the packaging is spiffy too.

 

The Last Waltz MFSL SACD was a Christmas present to myself and you are 100% correct, it is excellent. Love the packaging. The 30 page booklet is great. They spared no expense with this issue. Surprised it hasn't received more attention in this thread.

 

Do you have EAC peaks for the Japan Pastmasters CDs? I'm fairly certain they share the same mastering as the domestic Capitol issues.

Here are the peaks for Moondog:

01 100.0
02 92.7
03 97.9
04 86.0
05 98.1
06 94.8
07 76.0
08 93.3
09 89.4
10 82.6

And Islands:

01 89.2
02 99.2
03 100.0
04 86.4
05 100.0
06 83.3
07 87.6
08 89.4
09 94.5
10 97.4

 

No, I don’t have them but like with most of the Pastmasters series, the mastering is different from the US releases. There are exceptions of course.

 

Who mastered them? Larry Walsh did the US release the same year. I thought I remember reading that S/T had the same mastering.

Do you have the ability to get EAC peaks? Or upload a track, and we can compare the waveforms?

 

Huh, I can't even seem to find the Pastmasters release for Islands on Discogs.

 

According to the DR database the Moondog TOCP-6363 release shares the exact same DR values as my US Capitol disc.

Here's my DR report:

DR15 0.00 dB -16.69 dB 3:26 01-Ain't Got No Home
DR14 -0.65 dB -18.78 dB 3:21 02-Holy Cow
DR13 -0.18 dB -18.49 dB 2:55 03-Share Your Love With Me
DR15 -1.30 dB -18.31 dB 5:41 04-Mystery Train
DR15 -0.17 dB -17.07 dB 2:49 05-Third Man Theme
DR15 -0.46 dB -17.44 dB 3:01 06-Promised Land
DR14 -2.38 dB -18.22 dB 3:10 07-The Great Pretender
DR14 -0.59 dB -17.43 dB 3:28 08-I'm Ready
DR15 -0.96 dB -17.62 dB 3:50 09-Saved
DR15 -1.66 dB -19.07 dB 4:19 10-A Change Is Gonna Come


Nothing in the DR databse for Islands, but here's my report from the US Capitol release:

DR12 -0.99 dB -14.34 dB 3:54 01-Right As Rain
DR12 -0.07 dB -15.18 dB 3:17 02-Street Walker
DR13 0.00 dB -16.29 dB 3:12 03-Let The Night Fall
DR12 -1.27 dB -16.89 dB 3:10 04-Ain't That A Lot Of Love
DR13 0.00 dB -16.09 dB 3:40 05-Christmas Must Be Tonight
DR12 -1.59 dB -15.57 dB 3:55 06-Islands
DR12 -1.14 dB -15.24 dB 4:14 07-The Saga Of Pepote Rouge
DR11 -0.97 dB -16.49 dB 3:09 08-Georgia On My Mind
DR13 -0.49 dB -16.03 dB 3:51 09-Knockin' Lost John
DR13 -0.22 dB -15.91 dB 2:51 10-Livin' In A Dream

 

Okay, off topic but....

One of these albums has two separate mixes? What's the story behind that? I'm just getting into this band and want to collect all their albums but which one has more than one mix and which one is the correct mix?