The Beach Boys original SMiLE to be released on CD and vinyl LP... Part trois

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by darkmatter, Mar 26, 2011.

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  1. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    If that's true then wow - I mean, can you imagine being given the job of mastering 30+ minutes of SMiLE material for the first ever release and screwing it up??

    I don't know if I'm alone in worrying about what Mark will mess up this time around?

    I can't think of a single Beach Boys project he's been at the helm for in which he hasn't done something I strongly object to - be it NR, bad editing, sync problems, digital reverb, egregious EQ...

    I just hope he's learnt from his mistakes in time for this SMiLE set :sigh:
     
  2. Beattles

    Beattles Senior Member

    Location:
    Florence, SC
    I asked a while back, but is there anywhere that chronicles known acetates and what is on them and where it may be heard?
     
  3. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    How about "Ticket To Ride" and "Girl Don't Tell Me" - of course, that was a case of Brian blatantly trying his hand at writing a Beatle-esque song...

    :)
     
  4. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    I always love the armchair quarterbacking on this site. :shh:

    I agree that Linnet has had some flubs - the stereo "California Girls" obviously has some sync issues, but I've enjoyed the vast majority of the Beach Boys stereo remixes he has done. If you don't like them, no one is taking away the original mono mixes. Obviously, over the years Linnet has earned the trust of Brian Wilson, the rest of the Beach Boys, and Capitol Records. His mastering is the least of my concerns about this set.
     
  5. Mike D'Aversa

    Mike D'Aversa Senior Member

    I thought it was Carl's idea?
     
  6. Mike D'Aversa

    Mike D'Aversa Senior Member

    Of course, he re-did his "California Girls" stereo mix for 'The Sounds Of Summer' compilation...
     
  7. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Neither of the stereo "California Girls" mixes work for me. But, as I said, most of the other stereo remixes he has done sound great to me. They're an interesting alternative to the original masters, if nothing else.
     
  8. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    I don't remember hearing that before - any idea where you might have picked that up?
     
  9. Mylene

    Mylene Senior Member

    The Heroes and Villains stereo mix on Hawthorne is the worst thing I've ever heard. The first verse gives me advanced warning to push my speakers together before the massive volume drop and the horrible separation in the second bit. :realmad:
     
  10. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Sometimes I get to the point where I'd like to see all of the armchair mastering experts here start their own career as remastering engineers so that they could solve all of the problems with CD reissues.

    As I said above, all of the stereo remixes and vocals-only tracks that have appeared on various Beach Boys comps are interesting alternatives to the original masters. I suspect that many times Linnet didn't have perfect multitrack sources to work from, or did have to sync separate instrumental and vocal multitrack tapes together in the digital realm. I also suspect that there's more to Linnet's job than just pushing "play" on archival tapes; doubtless there are a lot of politics and egos and agendas involved with any Beach Boys archival release. Linnet's stereo mix of Pet Sounds is my preferred version of that album; I understand that it doesn't reflect Brian Wilson's original intentions, but it was a revelation to me the first time I heard it, and I still love it.
     
  11. pool_of_tears

    pool_of_tears Searching For Simplicity

    Location:
    Midwest
    If you're referring to the stereo remix on the Endless Harmony soundtrack, Mark didn't do the remix. It was Alan Boyd and it sounds just fine. Alan also remixed the Bambu material for possible release but that stuff was never issued.
     
  12. supermd

    supermd Senior Member

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    :righton:
     
  13. dallasone

    dallasone Active Member

    I recall reading that Brian or VDP was referring back to i'm Only Sleeping, a John Lennon track. John/Jack, are you sleeping? Before someone asks, don't recall where I read it, but it made sense to me at the time. Kind of a friendly rivalry thing.
     
  14. Mylene

    Mylene Senior Member

    It's the bits he gets right on Hawthorne (the extended Vegetables, Time To Get Alone, Lonely Days, Barbara Ann without the Party overdubs) that makes the other bits suck so hard. I :love: the stereo Pet Sounds, the GV box and Endless Harmony.
     
  15. dallasone

    dallasone Active Member

    It may have been discussed earlier, but I went back and dug up an article (by Richard Williams) from Melody Maker in 1972 where Carl says the Beach Boys are releasing SMiLE - I know that that is common knowledge that SMiLE was announced at that time, but is it common knowledge that it seems from that article that the track listing of the 1972 SMiLE had been settled, and he says something like "we've completed overdubs for all of the tracks where it's necessary". Carl also lists all of the tracks that were to be on that album.

    Was that completed album master lost? If so, how is that possible given the care that Stephen Desper and Carl gave to maintaining/protecting the tapes at that time?

    Sorry if I'm covering ground that has already been covered, but I don't think I am.

    PS. I will post a scan of the article if someone would like to read it, but it is also quoted in DP's book.
     
  16. GetHappy!!

    GetHappy!! Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    I think the issue many have with Mr. Linett is that he often pulls the "Brian doesn't like it", or "Brian wouldn't okay that" card whenever he's questioned on something. Just from perusing the archives on this board, there's some interesting anecdotes to be found.

    Quoting Andrew Sandoval, in response to Linett's criticism of Sandoval's work on Pet Sounds:
    "...Funny story to cap this off. Mark called several of my colleagues to ask what analog master I used for Surf's Up reissue CD, because he wanted to use it for his DVD-A. I gave them all the same answer to pass on to Mark (who refused to call me, and after all of the nasty stuff he's said about me, I don't blame him): "Tell Mark it is a tape he can find if he just sorts through the various LP masters. Here's the big hint, it's not the one with the big letters MASTER written in his hand writing with a shrapie." It never fails to crack me up. The guy mislabeled many tapes - and he's the "expert." On the multi-track for Holland's "Steamboat" he wrote "River Song." On the multi for the unissued "Battle Hymn Of The Republic" he wrote "Unknown Christmas Song."

    Then there was from Mark Linett (found here- http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=49780, in regards to Steve Hoffman's mastering of Pet Sounds:
    "You may prefer the DCC version, but it was not xfrd flat in spite of what Steve Hoffman claims. On the contrary imo and knowing what the flat tape sounds like, the DCC version is actually the most re-equalised version ever issued. No version of Pet Sounds has ever been released without equalisation and theat includes the original mono lp in 1966.
    Hope that helps clear things up...... Mark

    My final attempt at clearing up some incorrect "facts" about the various Pet Sounds releases:

    1- I'm not implying it, it is a fact. The DCC version is not a flat xfr and if it were there wouldn't be any "Hoffman" tape to use (why use a "flat" copy from DCC when we already have lots of flat copies made in 1966). The flat master does not sound like the DCC release, which is fine. If you like the DCC CD then it may be a great mastering job, but it most certainly is not a flat xfr.

    2- Hoffman's tape would be a heavily eqd copy and while some listeners prefer the sound of it, Brian does not.

    3-There is no noise reduction on the boxset and there couldn't be any because it was mastered at Capitol and at the time they didn't have a No Noise system. We'd stopped using No Noise by then anyway. The Smile tracks were for the most part new mixes that I did for the boxset because no original mixes could be found. The alternate version of Heroes & Villains is from a safety copy of that mix which isn't all that great sounding, but it is all we had.

    I'm not sure where this "LA master" thing comes from. The tape we used in 1987 for the 1st CD was Brian's original master and as is the custom was labelled the master for Pet Sounds. The NY copy was used in 1992 and 1996 (etc) when the original master vanished from Capitol. As to the intros, I don't recall on which songs or on which CDs we used new quieter copies of the intros taken from the multi-tracks, but in any case noise reduction was not used except on the 1990 CD.
    Mark

    That clears up the whole issue of the "LA tape" - this information came from Brad Elliott, who apparently mistakenly believed that the Capitol master was a copy of Brian's master - but the LA tape IS Brian's master! Which makes sense, because wasn't it the practice for Capitol to keep and store all the Beach Boys masters (LP's and singles) that it released? Brian kept the multitracks, unreleased songs and alternate mixes.

    This means that the New York tape was basically a "flat transfer" of the master. I'm surprized that Brian didn't keep a safety copy of the master - but maybe he did and that was what went missing.

    I know exactly what a flat xfr means and the DCC release does not sound like the flat master tape which is what it should sound like if Hoffman mastered it that way. BTW the boxset master was made using an ATR-100 and tube electronics . In addition the desriptionabove makes no sense since an ATR-100 is a tapedeck and so is an A-80. They can't have used both, but either way my ears tell me that the DCC CD is anything but flat nor should it be since no version of the album including the original vinyl was ever made from a flat xfr.

    end of discussion please."


    I think the "armchair quarterbacking" comes from those who take umbrage with the consistent insinuations by Mr. Linett that any Beach Boys product he is not involved with is not up to snuff. Of course, this is no indication that the imminent release of SMiLE will be mishandled in any way, but I can see why some might be skeptical of Mr. Linett.
     
  17. Mechanical Man

    Mechanical Man I Am Just a Mops

    Location:
    Oakland, CA, USA
    Pulled this from a 1974 interview with Bruce from the NME that I came across today. Here's some interesting Smile-related tidbits from the mouth of Mr. Johnston.

     
  18. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    I appreciate that clarification. I also think that he gets more right than he does wrong. I was listening to the Warmth of the Sun comp the other night and thought it sounded great.
     
  19. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    For whatever reason, Linnet is the man that the Beach Boys and Capitol have chosen to handle the Beach Boys archival releases. I don't really care what Linnet's thoughts about the DCC Pet Sounds are. The DCC Pet Sounds is out there for people who prefer Steve's purist take on Pet Sounds, and Linett's stereo Pet Sounds is out there for people who appreciate the stereo remix, inauthentic as it may be.
     
  20. nosticker

    nosticker Forum Guy

    Location:
    Ringwood, NJ
    You speak of the two people responsible for losing the tape of the final mix to "Do It Again" unless my memory fails.


    Dan
     
  21. davenav

    davenav High Plains Grifter

    Location:
    Louisville, KY USA
    It was always secondary to my point that I think there will be more vocals we haven't heard on the acetates, than we may be expecting. And direct-to-acetate was only one way I thought that might be the case, but I see now it was a huge mistake to even ask about the possibility of it.

    I'm excited about this project and just wanted to get the conversation going about acetates. I see I really rubbed folks the wrong way. I'll just shut up now and let the grown ups talk.
     
  22. dprokopy

    dprokopy Senior Member

    Location:
    Near Seattle, WA
    I would imagine a lot (but not all) of Smile was cut similar to Pet Sounds. That is, instrumental tracks were cut live with the Wrecking Crew onto 4-track tape, which was then mixed down to one track of an 8-track tape, onto which vocals were recorded. (Having said that, my understanding is that a lot of Smile tracks were recorded straight to 8-track, with original instrumental and vocal elements done on the same tape, with no "intermediary" bouncing).

    At any rate, as with Pet Sounds, this allowed Brian to attempt different vocal arrangements on tape, without necessarily erasing other versions. If he had a different idea for something, he'd just mix down the original 4-track onto a new 8-track and lay down a whole new series of vocals. Sometimes he might save those different 8-tracks, sometimes he might erase parts he didn't like and lay down new ones. There's lots of examples of alternate vocal work on the Pet Sounds box set that bears this out. (Basically, any alternate vocal on that box set that's in stereo - like Carl's original "Sloop John B" - would have most likely been from a separate 8-track than the master take.)

    My guess is that something similar happened with, say, "Child is Father of the Man." There are two different (mono) mixes of the chorus section to this song, with vastly different vocal arrangements (which a lot of people, including myself, have synched up for great-sounding "stereo" mixes). My guess is that those exist on separate 8-track tapes, and more than likely were never meant to be synched, and were probably just two different arrangements that Brian was attempting.

    I'm also certain that anything that ended up on an acetate originated with a rough tape mix. I'm also pretty certain nothing would have been added during those rough mixes. Brian only ever bothered adding overdubs during the mixing stage (like with "Help Me, Rhonda" and "I Get Around") when he literally ran out of tracks to add new overdubs onto. Having 8 tracks (only one of which was usually reserved for the instrumental track) allowed him to quit that practice starting with Pet Sounds.

    Now whether any of those (original) rough mixes - or, indeed, the original multitracks - still exist, that's the million dollar question.
     
  23. mr.schneider

    mr.schneider Active Member

    Location:
    N. Beechwood Dr.
    Here's something to bring a SMiLE to the thread.
    In 1986 there was a local record swap, as odd as it sounds in a parking structure. A boot sale of sorts- some people were selling from their cars, some had tables. I'd always been a BB fan, but soon a friend had made me a cassette dub of SMiLE from a boot he had- I was blown away!! I was on the trail of Beach Boys.

    I came up with super clean copies of Wild Honey and Smiley Smile.
    The copy of Smiley was some odd promotional issue. I was told by a collector some years later that this kind of stamp/punch was extremely rare. He said this copy should easily fetch $200+, and this was back in the early to mid 90's.
    Does anyone know about the "FREE" punch copy of Smiley?
     

    Attached Files:

  24. Jose Jones

    Jose Jones Outstanding Forum Member

    Location:
    Detroit, Michigan
    Just so we're clear here----the first version of Endless Harmony has the "good" stereo remix, right? The one done by Alan Boyd?

    And then the 2nd version of EH (with different cover) has Mark Linnet re-remixing California Girls? Is that the one with synch issues?
     
  25. Aftermath

    Aftermath Senior Member

    I've seen other copies of this album with the FREE punch, and have also been told it was used for promotional purposes. This was done for other albums a well, obviously. You may want to check out popsike.com to see what these have actually gone for. $200 seems a bit high, but I could be mistaken.
     
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