The Best Black Sabbath Pressing to own on vinyl

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Evil Strawberry, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. raye_penber

    raye_penber .

    Location:
    Highlands.
    To be honest, I wasn't overly taken with any of the above masterings/pressings, and found them to incredibly similar, though the two later reissues as sampled here do indeed sound incredibly bright in comparison.
     
  2. Rob6899

    Rob6899 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Millom, UK
    i have a vertigo swirl Paranoid that i bought some time ago off Fleabay for next to nothing.

    Black Sabbath - Paranoid

    But someone has scribbled all over the Vertigo insert, written "Happy Xmas Darling 1971" inside the gate fold, and coloured in "Paranoid" on the front....

    I class as it as a Xmas present from my past, but i was born in 1974 lol. It sounds amazing to my dull ears.

    Also have a '76 NEMS "Vol 4". It sounds ok to be fair.
     
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  3. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.

    Thanks for taking the time, but I don't find rips of vinyl to be at all useful and can be harmful as some may think that's what the vinyl will sound like.
     
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  4. Here's an observation after doing a little more reading in this and other Sabbath vinyl threads: I see a lot of people complaining that early vinyl is so expensive so they stick with modern vinyl releases. Which I totally get, as I am always struggling financially. Anyway, quite often, then, in the course of the discussion, it turns out that some of the same people own not just one, but 3, 4, sometimes even 5 or 6 modern vinyl releases of one and the same album. That's where I get puzzled: if there's enough money to buy so many modern LP pressings, why not buy just one recommended 1970ies or 1980ies LP pressing instead? I am not even really a vinyl person myself, I like vinyl, but I am also fine with CDs or lossless official download files, as long as they contain a good mastering. However, if I were wishing to listen to all my favorite Sabbath albums on vinyl, and if I had enough money to buy 3 to 6 modern vinyl releases, I would certainly rather try and hunt down a good old AAA LP. Even more certainly, I would never pay money for a digital-sourced LP. That's a concept I simply don't get - other than in business terms, of course: I am sure that digital-sourced vinyl does make a lot of sense to the record companies, as it is easy money for them.

    I am not too worried about that. I am fully aware that a digital vinyl-rip always loses a bit of that 'little something' that is the 'magic' of vinyl. But certainly not all of it. Anyway, my point here was not about 'vinyl magic' but about mastering as such (EQ etc.) and specifically about the proper level of brightness for this album, and a good vinyl-rip does convey enough of that for the task at hand. Thus, I find the differences between good early LP pressings and most modern LP pressings very easily detectably, even with LP-rips. (I use blind-testing software in order to make sury my biases don't affect my hearing.)

    Thank you! Well, if you take a little time and closely listen on a good system or good headphones (and I am not saying or thinking 'super-expensive' or 'super-audiophile' here), you would likely be able to notice certain differences between those 5 earlier releases. Most of them are very likely sourced from different (UK vs WG vs US vs. Japanese) tapes, 3 of them are from vinyl and 2 from CD, and the different engineers and cutters who worked on them have left their marks as well. Anyway, as you did notice, those 5 all share one distinct characteristic: whatever work (EQ etc.) was done ton them, it was moderate and reasonable. The Pearce 2012 remaster, in contrast, which is used for the two 2016 releases (and currently seems to be the default mastering used for most or all digital-sourced Sabbath vinyl and most digital Sabbath releases), has been EQed so heavily (or rather, bright) it is immediately distinguishable from any of the original pressings. And, IMO, clearly not in a good way. Some people like the 'details' that are allegedly 'revealed' on such bright masterings. Well, I like some 'details' too, but not every detail sounds good, and I certainly don't want the guitars to buried under lots of 'cymbal details' that were never supposed to suddenly be right in the middle of the mix.

    Anyway, does the Andy Pearce/Sean Magee Blue Vinyl sound similar to the 2016 samples? If it doesn't, it seems that Magee must have really put some work into rectifying Pearce's mess. Which would have been a good move from Magee. An even better move (that I am sure he didn't get the chance to do) would have been to use a good tape source, rather than re-remaster Pearce's remaster. As I said above, fixing a bad remaster can work, but it will hardly ever work as good as re-start with a source that hasn't been ruined in the first place.
     
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  5. raye_penber

    raye_penber .

    Location:
    Highlands.
    I've just taken another listen, and can confirm that the Blue EU 2016 pressing sounds like the same mastering latheofheaven posted above (War Pigs 2009 AP), but oddly doesn't sound like either of your CD/LP rips above (which are, as you said, very bright). Having listened to the selection of other rips you posted again, I can't say that I find any one of them to be as interesting as the 1st press War Pigs clip posted by lateofheaven (which is by no means a slight upon you - grateful for the uploads).

    Aforementioned 1st press clip of War Pigs, sonically, has very similar characteristics, soundstage, etc. to my '75UK NEMS S/T.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  6. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.

    Still I disagree on the rips, and IIRC, they were from different systems and people. And no mention of which stamper were used.
     
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  7. Thanks for confirming that. It is really very odd, and the similarity you hear between the blue vinyl and the 2009 Pearce CD must be a coincidence as the 2009 Sanctuary masterings (AFAIK) were never used for vinyl, plus the info I find on Discogs and elsewhere clearly suggests that the Blue vinyl is sourced from a remaster by Andy Pearce and Matt Wortham, which was the mastering team in 2012, not 2009.

    Well, lateofheaven's UK LP sample is probably from a later Pbthal LP-rip than mine; Pbthal has done many rips of the 1st UK LP, using ever-changing and increasingly expensive equipment. Maybe the vinyl copy he used for the rip that lateofheaven posted was cleaner and better, or maybe you like the sound of Pbthal's new equipment better than the old one. I didn't expect that my samples would sound better than his, my point merely was to allow for a comparison (a) between the 2012 Pearce sound on the one hand and the sound of early pressings on the other hand, and (b) between the 2012 Pearce on the one hand, and the Magee variant of it on your blue vinyl on the other hand.

    Maybe I am more sensitive to differences between the earlier releases than you (for example, I prefer the 1986 WG Intercord CD over the 1987 Japan 33PD CD, and I have my preferences between the 3 LP-rips I posted as well), but I do think that most 1970ies LP pressings of the 1970ies Sabbath albums from the UK, Germany and France, and to a slightly lesser extent from the US and Canada, are significantly better (if they are in good condition, of course) than most modern vinyl and many CD releases. Thus, I believe that people would usually be better off getting even one of the lesser popular 1970ies (or maybe 1980ies) LP pressings than with most modern stuff. Thanks again for your feedback, it's appreciated!

    I am fully aware of the difference that stampers and systems make. The LP-rips I chose for these samples were chosen from many others, I only included rips that I consider to be at least good quality, and that are not atypical for the LP in question. Anyway, as I already tried to explain to you, my point was not about comparing these rips from early vinyl to each other. My point was about giving people who are not familiar with the early Sabbath pressing's sound at least a rough idea what it's like, and how it contrasts to the mess that Pearce's 2012 masterings are. That contrast is huge (as you would surely appreciate if you gave them a listen), and it is at least 5 times bigger than the contrast between any of these early pressings that I included. I think that raye_penber's comments on the samples confirm that point. I appreciate your sense for subtleties. However, in order to be able to develop an understanding for such subtleties (if one wants to - I don't think everyone needs to), one has to gain an understanding of the much less subtle differences between the sound of modern, digital-sourced LPs and original LPs first. Now, you'll object by saying that the sound of original LPs differs from the sound of rips from those LPs. I agree, but again the difference is significantly more subtle than the difference between the sound of modern, digital-sourced LPs and original LPs. Besides, do you know many people who have listened to LP-rips from great-sounding early pressings and responded by saying: "that sounds boring"? I actually know nobody who reacted like that, and I have probably shared LP-rips with more than 100 people over the last few years. The vast majority of those who weren't familiar with either early LPs or rips were very impressed. Sure, no LP-rip sounds 100% or even 95% as good as the LP it is sourced from. But every good LP-rip of a great early pressing (and again, I always pick ones that are at least good - IMO, of course) is good enough to demonstrate that that pressing sounds great. I know many people who, after listening to a rip from an early LP pressing, either decided to start collecting vinyl, or try and track down a copy of the same pressing that the rip was from. Thus, in my experience, good-sounding LP-rips are actually a great way of introducing people to early vinyl, or at least making them curious for early vinyl.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
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  8. sillycornelius

    sillycornelius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Raleigh
    I have the Rhino edition of Vol. 4 and it's fantastic!
    Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath Vol. 4
     
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  9. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    No, NO, NOOOOOOO...! Back, Spawn of The Devil!


    [​IMG]
     
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  10. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Awesome, thanks Bro!
     
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  11. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    You really ARE very thorough and detailed about all this, and it is a great education to know about many of the ins & outs of the different masterings / pressings, etc., so a BIG 'Thank You' for that! [​IMG]

    Slick is a purest, that is for sure, but I think that even without ALL the details, it is still pretty damn hard to beat the quality of a Pbthal rip. And YES, you are quite right. I belong to a private site in Europe which hosts ALL of his rips, so as he 'upgrades' his equipment, at least up to a while back ago, I tried to keep up :) I even wrote him once asking if he felt that his latest setup sounded 'better' than the last rip. He interesting answered saying that people felt differently about that, some preferred his previous setup, some preferred the newer.

    But, I mean, Slick IS right of course ultimately... BUT... IF you are gonna use a needledrop, especially of a Classic album like this one, I DO honestly believe that it Pbthal's going to give you at least something of a reference point for comparison. I could tell right away, even with my 2ndary system that his rip of the 1st UK was phenomenal!
     
  12. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Yes, THAT one is the one to get if you are going for the newer remasters. They somehow screwed up the Sean Magee one later on.
     
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  13. Sax-son

    Sax-son Forum Resident

    Location:
    Three Rivers, CA
    I had the original UK pressing (with Evil Woman) of the first Black Sabbath album and I thought that sounded fantastic.
     
  14. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    FYI, BlackSabbathRainbow is our Sis.
     
  15. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Also too... I DO very much agree with you that if people are indeed going to spend the money, multiple new remasters are a waste and YES should be spent on better originals.

    Just to add too... You mention that you are not really a 'Vinyl Guy'... So, although you do have a LOT of insight and knowledge about the different masterings and such, you must realize that if you are not emphasizing VINYL as THE gold standard, a lot of the comparisons to many of us anyway who have very much concentrated on building high resolution vinyl systems are going to go, 'Oh... well he is not into vinyl that much'

    That doesn't in any way mean that a lot of what you know is not indeed vital and helpful. But, you have to understand that here especially on SHF, Vinyl rules as king with NO others to stand before it! :D The sound reproduction on vinyl is almost Religious with us, so you honestly have to realize that no matter what digital sources you are very conversant with, if you are not distilling the final verdict through a vinyl system, it truly is going to make a HUGE difference. I understand that you may not agree, but in the world of vinyl, whether you are a part of it or not, there are MYRIADS and orders of magnitude of subtlety and variation and interpretation, etc... I mean, some people here have spent obscene amounts of money on very nice vinyl systems (not that that alone qualifies as good sound quality, but it usually doesn't hurt...)

    So, whether you agree or not, you MUST understand that all of us devout vinyl people are ALWAYS going to use that as THE last word, period, because that it truly where all the beauty is...
     
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  16. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOA... [​IMG]
     
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  17. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    I shoulda known...

    Guys are seldom that eloquent... [​IMG]
     
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  18. Thanks for pointing it out. :)

    LOL, I onyl just noticed I called myself 'not vinyl guy', rather than 'not a vinyl person' - I mean, technically that was correct, as I am neither a guy nor a vinyl person, but it's still odd for me to say it like that. I guess that talking to men about 98% of the time I spend on this forum, and being addressed as a man myself by 95% of the people here who don't know me already, finally tales its toll. :crazy::D
     
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  19. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Heh... that's funny :)

    It's truly amazing that after dealing with all of us that you are still sane at all... [​IMG]
     
  20. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    It's just a whole lot easier to drop $15 - $25 on an individual reissue LP than to drop $200 on a vintage Vertigo. :laugh:

    It's fairly common that people who really aren't into vinyl anyway have the most puzzlement about digitally-sourced vinyl. I'm more of a vinyl person and I have no problem at all with digitally sourced vinyl as long as the mastering's good. I have the first two albums on 70's-vintage NEMS and also the 2-LP Sean Magee LPs; Master of Reality on vintage Vertigo; Vol 4 on vintage NEMS and 2010 Rhino (AAA-mastering by Chris Bellman); and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath on vintage WB and WWA. I wouldn't get rid of any of them, they all have their peculiar charms.
     
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  21. I am following Pbthal myself, and I am one of the people who are leaning towards preferring his earlier setups. They tend to sound a bit darker and more natural to me.

    Who said that I am? ;)

    Well, I know at least some people who are very much into vinyl and are fully agreeing with me that digital-sourced vinyl doesn't make any sense sonicwise. Which obviously doesn't rule out that digitally sourced LPs can have their charms - people (many of them, anyway) are imaginative beings, we can find beauty in almost any object if we're looking for it. :)

    I would prefer an LP that uses a good digital mastering over a CD or LP that uses a bad digital mastering any day myself. Where I differ from many of the vinyl people here is that I would prefer a CD or lossless FLAC file containing a good mastering over an LP that uses the same good mastering.
    However, with many digital-sourced vinyl recordings nowadays, things are much clearer anyway, as what we often actually get is a bad digital mastering on vinyl. Like the 2012 Pearce remasters used for the 2012, 2017, 2019 Sabbath LP box sets and other vinyl releases. I see people on this forum buy all of them and then go on to claim how they find something new and impressive in each of them and how they sound fantastic and definitive and whatnot, without even having heard early LPs or CDs, and thus without even a remote idea of what these albums are supposed to sound like.

    I really don't doubt that in general about LP pressings in general. I am just not buying into the peculiar charms of digital-sourced vinyl, and even less into those of bad masterings (analog- or digital-sourced, whatever media they are presented on).

    So we agree on the main point, I think.

    Yeah, don't worry, I know about vinyl fans. :DI am not sure I agree with your suggestion that SHF as such is vinyl-dominated - after all, this is Steve Hoffman's forum, to my knowledge he doesn't have any problems with CDs, SACDs etc. at all, and this forum contains many CD threads full of people who either aren't into vinyl at all, or are at least not even remotely religious about it. There are also many people here, including myself, who respect and like vinyl but also notice its limitations. We'll have to agree to disagree on many points, precisely because of the quasi-religious element that you have named yourself. Several things you said in your post would actually be a perfect start for self-criticism, but that's up to you of course.:D

    Back to the topic, the best Black Sabbath pressings on vinyl that I have heard were early pressings. For people who like darker masterings, early Australian Fontana LPs of Sabbath's debut album might be worth checking out. Here's a nice discussion about multiple pressings of those:
    Which was really the 1st Australian Fontana LP pressing of Black Sabbath's 1st, self-titled album?
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  22. Well, any exemplar of that pressing in good condition will sound fantastic. Its only fault is that it doesn't include Wicked World.
     
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  23. raye_penber

    raye_penber .

    Location:
    Highlands.
    I'm probably one of the few who prefer Evil Woman for the S/T.
    To me, Wicked World (as great as it is), felt more like Paranoid and less like the material on the S/T (probably no coincidence, considering when it was recorded).
     
  24. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.

    I was more of a strict against digital vinyl guy, but some recent acquisitions got me rethinking my thunking.
    I am now more of a against premastered digital sourced vinyl guy.
     
  25. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    To each their own, but I feel that Wicked World fits the flow/feel of the album better.
    Evil Woman, IMO, should have been released as a single and left off of the album......killer track though.
     

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