The Big Star 3rd/Sister Lovers Song by Song Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Tim S, Jun 18, 2019.

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  1. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    After finishing up the threads for Big Star’s #1 Record and Radio City, people said they were interested in continuing with a thread about the 3rd Big Star album. @Roseriverbear decided he couldn’t do it and felt good about me undertaking it – so here we are.

    I will be following the general format he used in the previous threads, with some small changes to accommodate me – I cannot introduce a song with the level of music theory he brings to table. I’ll do that when it’s something I feel confident about, but mostly I’ll stick to general thoughts about each song with an emphasis on structure, themes, and musical styles. When I do make mistakes – please correct me, trust me I want to know and I don’t get offended by stuff like that. Songs will also be introduced at a slower pace just because that suits me a little better. If it gets TOO slow, just tell me.

    If you’re here, then you already appreciate this record. In a lot of ways it’s not easy to appreciate. Much of it is unfinished, fragmented, and sometimes heavily influenced by drug use – particularly pain killers, sedatives, and tranquilizers, along with plenty of alcohol.It’s fair to say Alex Chilton was not in the best frame of mind to create music at the time this was recorded and that often shows. No one even settled on an album title, but these days it seems like people have mostly started referring to it as Big Star 3rd.

    [​IMG]

    There are multiple versions of the record and each one follows a different track list – there never has been an “official” track list. I’ve sifted through the tracklists of each version and settled on the DISK 3 of the 2016 Omnivore release COMPLETE THIRD, which is labeled “Finished Masters.” No single release has all the tracks and the track order I’d prefer, so I feel like it’s the best compromise. Please feel free to argue with me on this – if there’s a consensus for a different version, I am open to that.
     
  2. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    [​IMG]

    WIKIPEDIA ENTRY – edited for length and clarity

    Third/Sister Lovers - Wikipedia

    After two commercially unsuccessful albums, Third documents the band's deterioration as well as the declining mental state of singer Alex Chilton. It has since gone on to become one of the most critically acclaimed albums in history and is considered a cult album. Rolling Stone placed the album at number 449 on its "500 Greatest Albums of All Time" list.[2]

    After the commercial failure of Big Star's first two albums, #1 Record (1972) and Radio City (1974), Alex Chilton and Jody Stephens returned to Ardent Studios in late 1974—accompanied by what biographer Bruce Eaton describes as "a large and revolving cast of Memphis musicians"—to record, under producer Jim Dickinson, "a batch of starkly personal, often experimental, and by turns beautiful and haunting songs that were anything but straight-up power pop."[3] Ardent's John Fry, producer of the first two albums and also involved with the third, recalled that the sessions were burdened by severe personal issues; Eaton tells how Fry "finally called a halt to the escalating madness" and the album was mastered by Larry Nix on February 13, 1975.[4]

    Different opinions exist regarding the categorization of Third as a Big Star album. According to Chilton, "Jody and I were hanging together as a unit still but we didn't see it as a Big Star record. We never saw it as a Big Star record. That was a marketing decision when the record was sold in whatever year that was sold. And they didn't ask me anything about it and they never have asked me anything about it." Stephens said, "I've seen it in different ways. To a great extent it is an Alex solo record ... It's Alex's focus, it's his emotional state of being but I brought in the string section for the one song I wrote and Alex hit it off with Carl Marsh ... and started using Carl and the string section for other things. What would that album have been like if it didn't have the strings?" According to Eaton, the mastering card identifies Chilton as the recording artist.[4]

    Jovanovic, meanwhile, notes, "Whether the band was still called Big Star is debatable. The session sheets have the band name 'Sister Lovers' (Chilton and Stephens were dating Lesa and Holliday Aldridge at the time) clearly written on them. This may well have been a joke, although Chilton and Stephens did use the Sister Lovers name for a radio broadcast in early 1975."[5] Lesa Aldridge, a cousin of photographer and Radio City album cover creator William Eggleston, contributed vocals and was, in the words of Dickinson, "a big, big part of the record". Dickinson said that Chilton, whose relationship with Aldridge was stormy, "reached a point ... where he started to go back and erase her—there was a lot more of Lesa on the album than there is now".[6] During the sessions, Chilton recalled, "Jim and I did all sorts of weird things ... in off hours here and there".[4]

    Like Big Star's first two albums, Third/Sister Lovers did not have commercial success at the time of its release but later attracted wider interest. In AllMusic's retrospective review of the album, the website gave it five stars out of five, calling it a "shambling wreck of an album" while at the same time "among the most harrowing experiences in pop music; impassioned, erratic, and stark" and "the slow, sinking sound of a band falling apart"
     
  3. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    Track Listing

    Vol. 3: Final Masters

    1. "Stroke It Noel"
    2. "Downs"
    3. "Femme Fatale"
    4. "Thank You Friends"
    5. "Holocaust"
    6. "Jesus Christ"
    7. "Blue Moon"
    8. "Kizza Me"
    9. "For You"
    10. "O, Dana"
    11. "Nightime"
    12. "Whole Lotta Shakin’ Goin’ On"
    13. "Kanga Roo"
    14. "Take Care"
    15. "Big Black Car"
    16. "Dream Lover"
    17. "You Can’t Have Me"
    18. "Till the End Of the Day"
    19. "Lovely Day"
    20. "Nature Boy"
    21. "Thank You Friends (New Remix - Vocals & Strings)" – hidden/unlisted track
     
  4. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    East Tennessee
  5. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Great that you are doing this album. :righton:
     
  6. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Is this the sequence you will use for the songs each day?
     
  7. bzfgt

    bzfgt The Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler

    "Stroke it Noel" is a great one! I love this album, the way it seems kind of barely hanging together at times adds to it somehow.
     
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  8. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    Yes, unless there is strong consensus for another version. I also will probably not do a new track each day, more like every couple of days.
     
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  9. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Sorry..... I see you said that in a previous post.
     
  10. bvb1123

    bvb1123 Rock and Roll Martian

    Location:
    Cincinnati Ohio
    "Stroke It Noel" Great opening track for this star-crossed album. Chilton sounds great. The band is excellent. The strings add just the right touch to push this song over the hump from a good song to a great song. Terrific tune!
     
  11. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    Stroke it Noel

    A very baroque piece of pop music that follows a traditional verse, pre-chorus, chorus structure with a fractured time signature and beat that Jody does his best to wrest into submission and a dominant string section. I gave up trying to count the beats to come up with the time signature, but somehow it works.

    Alex sings the stream of consciousness lyrics with beauty and conviction. Though he sounds a bit slow and slurring at times. Alex picks a trebly acoustic guitar that almost sounds like a harpsichord – again, it’s very baroque sounding music.

    Don’t know what to make of the lyrics. It’s hard to pin down any overall theme here and it’s quite jarring when Chilton sings

    Oh, keep an eye
    On the sky
    Will they come
    Oh the bombs

    It’s not what we’re used to hearing from Big Star and it’s not my favorite, but this is a pretty remarkable amount of musical ideas condensed into just 2 minutes.

    QUESTION: Is this the song you would have chosen to open the album? If not, which would you choose?
     
  12. vamborules

    vamborules Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT
    Stroke It Noel is my favorite Big Star song. Perfect, beautiful..simultaneously sad and uplifting. It's just glorious. I can't think of any song like it. Music from another world.

    As far as the tracklist. The '92 Ryko CD was my introduction to Big Star. Not just this material but the first time I ever heard the band. So that one is special to me but I know there's no "real" track order. This one will work as well as any for the purposes of this thread.
     
  13. Well done for starting the thread - let's see who joins in.
    Third is my least favourite Big Star album. I understand the reluctance to call it a Big Star album, but not sure what we'd get out of starting that debate again?
    One thing with Third - the approach is so different to what was served up on the first two records. I sense that the material was never really rehearsed by a band, these are songs committed to tape and then developed in the studio, rather than songs developed in a rehearsal room by musicians together and then committed to tape and developed further. The energy of the first two records is thus only captured sporadically. Then of course you have the myths and rumours surrounding the recording, the Jim Dickinson dynamic, questionable behaviour, John Fry pulling the plug etc.
    The resulting record is a hit and miss affair for me. Some masterful songs and moments of inspiration for sure, but also half-baked and dishevelled (and not in a good way) at times too.
    'Stroke It Noel' is one of my favourites and a worthy opener to any Big Star record though.
     
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  14. Edgard Varese

    Edgard Varese Royale with Cheese

    Location:
    Te Wai Pounamu
    I go back and forth, but in all honesty I would have to say that this is my second favorite album of all time. It's so close to my heart that I have difficulty writing about it.
     
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  15. Edgard Varese

    Edgard Varese Royale with Cheese

    Location:
    Te Wai Pounamu
    I first heard the Rykodisc CD, so I am used to having "Kizza Me" first up.
     
  16. ralphb

    ralphb "First they came for..."

    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    The first version I heard of this was the original PVC vinyl when it was released, and it's still my favorite of the 4 versions I have. If I recall, Noel was one of the string players on the album, and the song title was kind of a playful nod to him.
    One of the greatest "do you wanna dance" songs, and as always for Alex, there's a bit of foreboding in the lyric "stay clear of the streets", all very fragmented and very loose. The strings add the baroque feel, but also reflect the off kilter feel of the lyrics and vocal, a neat trick he pulls off throughout the album. Perfect opening for me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  17. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Its true that there is no "real" running order. The producer of the album (Jim Dickinson) said that they never got as far as sequencing the album when John Fry (the recording engineer/owner of the studio) pulled the plug on the sessions, saying something like ' I know you're not finished, but I am. We've just got to mix what we have and call it a day on the project.' Understandable given that he'd show up at the studio in the mornings to find blood on/in the mixing board, or urine on the carpet from the previous night's session. Dickinson and Fry mixed the album, excluding Chilton from the process, with Dickinson saying he could mix it with Fry or Chilton, but not both, and given Fry's engineering expertise, as opposed to Chilton's personal volatility at the time, it was not a difficult decision to make. Dickinson also said Chilton got his revenge when Dickinson produced his next album 'Like Flies On Sherbert' when Chilton purposely excluded him from the mixing process.

    Anyway Dickinson said the one thing both he and Chilton definitely agreed on was that 'Thank You Friends' should open the album, and that 'Take Care' should close the album.

    Personally I like the Ryko running order - and not just because I heard it first.

    Why I like it:

    1 - ignoring what I consider the "bonus tracks" (15-19 on the Ryko disc) the 14 song sequence ends with 'Take Care' as intended, and places 'Thank You Friends' as track 2 (not exactly as intended but literally as close as you can get to it).

    2 - all of the 5 "bonus tracks" on the Ryko disc are below the standard of the 14 "album tracks". The closest any of them come to matching the standard of the first 14 songs is 'Dream Lover', and even then its still not very close.

    3 - the "album" (first 14 tracks on the Ryko disc) seem to be very well sequenced into two halves (album sides) - tracks 1-7 and 8-14 - making the album a "journey" into and out of darkness. The album starts and ends (relatively) optimistically, while the middle bottoms out into suicidal depression (Holocaust to end "side 1") and picking up where it left off with Kangaroo (first song on side 2) and finally ending with the anti-'Holocaust' message of 'Take Care'. Jody Stephens has said he's received several letters from fans telling him that the album saved their lives when they were contemplating suicide. He didn't mention which version/running order they were listening to, but since the Ryko version was the first ever wide release of the album.....

    Anyway, as support for my stance that none of the "bonus tracks" on the Ryko disc match the quality of the first 14 tracks, lets have a look:

    15 - Nature Boy - a "run-through" and likely not a real contender for the album, as it has Chilton audibly stifling his laughter near the end of the track at the sight/sound of William Eggleston's (who played the piano on the track) crutch (or cane?) - which he had leaned on the piano - falling to the floor. Not to mention the unrelated sound of (IIRC a child, perhaps a relative of Eggleston) goofing around on an organ while the track was being recorded.

    16 - Til The End Of The Day - good but unrelated to the album (in both sound and purpose) being a track recorded for Lesa to sing (Alex's vocal being a "guide vocal" for her - see video below)

    17 - Dream Lover - the only "bonus track" that wouldn't have sounded totally out of place if included within the (first) 14 track Ryko running order - though IMO its still not as good as any of those 14.

    18 - Downs - interesting to be sure, but according to Dickinson a conscious "oh yeah?!" and/or "screw you!" by Chilton to Fry, who had commented that he thought the song had "commercial potential" in its "pre-recording session" demo form. Dickinson said Chilton then purposely sabotaged the recording of it - even using a basketball as drums.

    19 - 'Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On' - I have no evidence either way as to whether this was ever a real contender for the album, but it certainly doesn't sound like it. However I could (possibly) believe it was a contender for 'Like Flies On Sherbert' had it been recorded four years later.

     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  18. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    Me too and I think it's a better intro, but Stroke it Noel is pretty good as an opener. The album proper - if there is such a thing - should definitely end with Take Care, I'm not going to waver on that one.
     
  19. Edgard Varese

    Edgard Varese Royale with Cheese

    Location:
    Te Wai Pounamu
    I couldn't agree more. :)
     
  20. Edgard Varese

    Edgard Varese Royale with Cheese

    Location:
    Te Wai Pounamu
    I'd say we need to keep "Nature Boy" (if only for Alex's sublime vocal), "Dream Lover" and "Downs". The other two can go.
     
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  21. palisantrancho

    palisantrancho Forum Resident

    "Stroke it Noel" is my most played Big Star song. I love everything about it. It has a great vocal, great lyrics, and great arrangement. I asked someone recently what songs do you think are my favorites or a song I always play? They responded "That Stroke it Noel song". :cool:

    I also think it's the perfect opener for the album. I'm more familiar with the cd track listing, but I prefer the vinyl reissue with this song first.

    Third is by far my favorite Big Star album. I prefer Box Tops to Big Star, but this album is amazing.
     
  22. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    Downs track 2

    [​IMG]

    (above Alex and Lesa Aldridge)

    The story goes that Alex overheard John Fry comment that this song had “commercial potential.” According to Jim Dickinson the comment prompted Alex to make sure that any commercial appeal the song had was destroyed. Honestly, it’s a wreck, as it was intended to be.

    I think Fry was right - there actually are pop hooks buried in this mess. Presumably he heard some form of the demo below, which is Alex singing and playing electric guitar.



    Hearing the final product I assumed Alex made up most of the lyrics on the spot – with the tape rolling. Hearing the demos (there’s a total of 4 versions included on the box set we are drawing from) it’s clear that this isn’t true. Basically, every word is the same in each demo and it’s definitely sung with confidence– that’s because he didn’t write them, Lesa Aldridge did. She was Alex’s girlfriend throughout the time of these sessions and appears on some other tracks and according to Dickinson was a vital part of the entire record. Her relationship with Alex was apparently so volatile that he erased many of her parts on other songs – just how much of Lesa was originally on this album isn’t known. Here are her lyrics to “Downs:”

    Take downs
    Things sinkin' with a melody
    Someone's gonna ask if you graduated
    But as for you
    Throw down
    Isolated as far as you go
    I'm well versed in the walls of worst
    In the windows of most
    Wind down
    A.C.
    Coast to coast
    High cool 'cept when I lie with you
    Naked on a southern love
    Oh cool downs
    Cool downs
    Wise and prosperous
    That I am
    Flustered and erratic
    'Cept when I lie with you
    Naked on a southern love
    Give downs
    Rub downs
    Lie downs
    Any downs at all
    Any downs at all

    “Final version”

    Downs

    A single guitar and piano drive the funky, semi-New Orleans style rhythm accompanied by steel drum and various percussion instruments (including a basketball being struck). “Loose” doesn’t begin to describe the result. It sounds like what I assume it is – very intoxicated people banging on things.

    I wouldn’t have included this as a track on what this box set calls “Final Masters” and is intended to be a group of songs and a track order representing an approximation of the album in its final form. I definitely don’t like it as the second track.

    QUESTION: Would you have included this as part of the album? Why or why not?
     
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  23. palisantrancho

    palisantrancho Forum Resident

    I never paid much attention to this song. It's only a bonus a track on my cd and it's not on my vinyl copy. It definitely doesn't fit as second song. I don't think it would be horribly out of place somewhere on the album, but it doesn't improve the album. It has a bit of the loose and sloppy "Like Flies on Sherbert" vibe. I have no strong opinions either way. I could take it or leave it.
     
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  24. bvb1123

    bvb1123 Rock and Roll Martian

    Location:
    Cincinnati Ohio
    "Downs" I don't like this song at all. Perhaps my least favorite thing they ever put to tape. I can understand why, on my Rykodisc version, it's relegated to bonus track status.

    To answer the question: No, I definitely would not have included it as a part of the album. It's just not up to their standards at all. It's somehow got too much going on and feels unfinished at the same time.
     
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  25. ralphb

    ralphb "First they came for..."

    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    That track sounds like it was recorded on Tuinol, which isn't a good thing in this case. Lesa had her own band at the time, The Klitz:
     
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