The current state of horns in 2020

What’s out there? What’s hot? What’s the best value? Who is the king of horns? Klipsch? Volti? JBL? Avantgarde? Oswald Mills?

I’d love to hear member’s experiences with modern horns. I assume most are with Klipsch and that’s great. But what about the big JBLs, etc? I don’t hear (read) to much about them.

 

for some context im a very young individual with a classical music background. I strive for getting a sound that is close to a live performance. having grown up playing in orchestras, and also, going to shows and listening to them front row seats, I love horns and the sense of thereness they give. horn loudspeakers offer up true to life dynamics. For me, again as I said, as a musician, dynamics are extremely important. If you have the right dynamics, that is, the ability to go from as quiet to hear a pin drop, to a thunderous crescendo, and vice versa, you are very close into achieving sonic perfection. a recreation of an entire orchestral piece in room is the ideal. If you can get that, everything will fall together. this is my approach to high end audio.

But as for horns and their place with all the other designs, dyanmic, ribbons, compression drivers, single driver wide band, active class d powered, and plasma and electrostatics, horns have their own little niche that I can totally understand arent your cup of tea. perhaps horns arent for most audiophiles. I consider myself much more of a musician (I literally am one) so perhaps that is why I favour horns. also most horns measure poorly and have horn coloration. there are no real 'kings' of horns unless you DIY imo. almost all current horn speakers on the market are not really true horns. I'll present some of my thoughts about the speaker brands you have mentioned. Aside from Volti, I am quite familiar with all of them.

klipsch. most klipsch speakers are the closest thing to horn speakers from the brands you have mentioned. the la scala is kind of the only true horn loudspeaker klispch makes, the bass bin is technically folded in a way that makes it a horn. Jubilees too but those are out of production for 3 decades now. also mostly a DIY speaker as I mentioned above which is the true horn speaker system. klipschorns need to be corner loaded. and have bizarre measurements and impedance issues. having heard them in person I find that you need a very very specific amp with them. most tube amps are incompatible with klipsch even tho they are so sensitive. so their sensitivity is just wasted. yawn. the old man used to be able to make a good speaker back in the day but the company just isn't what it used to be.

volti. better then klipsch thats for sure. dont know much about them other then their cabinets are gorgeous.

JBL. I own JBL speakers. The JBL Synthesis 4367. It is a very natural sounding speaker, smooth, accurate, airy, and phenomenal bass. It is not really a true horn loudspeaker. for one its a reflex loaded system. damped woofer with two ports to extend on the low end. very clean sounding as well by the way. and secondly the horn on it was carefully engineered in a harman lab and is mostly used to control horizontal and vertical directivity and dispersion to allow for an even sound no matter where in the room you sit. technically it is a horn but it suffers from none of the horn colorations that most horn designs suffer from. To anyone who claims that the 4367 is honky sounding pa sounding speaker, they are wrong and are attributing negative experience with other horns to this one. the fact is, the 4367 is state of the art, and takes all of its design cues from the JBL Pro M2 master reference monitor. This was a monitor concieved back in 2010 when Harman established a $350 million dollar fund that all Harman companies could draw from. JBL received a bulk of this share to develop and design some major advancements and designs used in the M2.

The rest of the JBL Synthesis lineup, namely the dd67000 and k2 s9900 are gorgeous and right up there with volti for some of the best looking cabinets of any speaker currently being made. the cabinets are made in denmark by the way in the same facility that also makes cabinets for raidho and dynaudio. I have heard that top end for these speakers is gorgeous and of course the bass is stupendously good and gutteral owing to the huge enclosures these cabinets employ to get natural sounding bass. way better sounding then using multiple smaller overhung drivers. only a true horn loaded 3 or 4 or 5 way loudspeaker system can top these imo.

avantgarde. avantgarde is very cool. I have heard the avantgarde duo xd in person and not only is it by far THE most visually impressive and imposing speakers I've ever heard, it sounded phenominal as well. there is an air and presense that the horn of avantgarde speakers gives that puts it beyond any of the other speakers mentioned here. is it colored? probably. but does it sound more real? yes. it also makes me feel more emotionally connectd to the music. avantgarde is my end game loudspeakers. other then wilson, I dont know of another brand that I aspire to own more then them.

I have also heard two brands that you haven't mentioned. Cessaro, which is really very special. No doubt due to their massive just massive cabinets, over built and engineered design. its great. and their sound is equally great as their price... I think their cheapst model is as much as avantgarde's most expensive. Acapella is also very neat but I think they are extraodinarily poor value for what you pay for. The cabinets are small, and the horns unimpressive. Yet they command very high prices. You can pick them up fairly cheaply on the second hand market, however. So if you want a good deal on a horn loudspeaker, Acapella might be a way in for cheap.

I forgot to mention my experience with a smith horn loudspeaker I owned (my first horn!) which utilized a Faital Pro compression driver in a gorgeous burl oak smith horn plus a very large Beyma woofer for the low end. Seriously the best bass I ever heard, even better then my 4367! The resolution was astounding. The top end sadly could not be tamed in my room, I did not hve the space to let them breath. I also owned a speaker from a smaller outfit called Coherent Audi. I believe he simply cut out the dust cap of the pro driver he used or the bass, fitted the tweeter in the throat and used for reinforcement. A novel idea, but not really very coherent sounding, ironically enough.

 

thanks for this

what amps have you tried with your big JBL’s? I’m interested in them.

 

Well OM seems atypical at least
A Visit to Oswalds Mill Audio

Horns are tricky beasts, speaking from an engineering point of view. Way back in the day someone noticed that holding a cone in front of their mouth made their voice louder. Eventually this lead to various horn expansion schemes: exponential, tractrix, etc. Some loved the sound, some complained they sounded like the stuff that comes out the other end of your alimentary canal. Who are tops? By quantity, probably Klipsch, though since now-head engineer Roy Delgado once designed me a superior oval horn I wonder why they are using rectangular. Out of big brands, I think the JBL Synthesis are probably the most scientific, which they should be at those prices. GedLee (see below) was touting the most realized horns, but now retired. Really the hot action is in the PA world though sound quality is less of a priority than SPL, coverage, and distortion.

Some promising research touched upon here
Reflecting on Echoes and the Cepstrum
didn't get fully realized as far as I know. The feeling I got back then was that perhaps various reflections led to the released of delayed energy, leading to a "hornyness" to the sound (). There can be various reflections/resonances, using the words vaguely:
- From the end of the horn, especially if the termination is not smooth to the air
- From the start of the horn, if the driver coupling has discontinuity due to mounting
- ...or due to a round driver feeding a square horn start-someone (Klipsch?) used to do this and I always thought it was SO stupid, why would you have a round element feeding into a flat square?
- Discontinuity of waveform due to sharp edges, like the many many horns that end up rectangular, and have 90° wall joints. This just intuitively doesn't support a nice wave, think soap bubbles, though pending more evidence perhaps that intuition is inappropriate.
- Internal resonances along the length of the horn, or side-to-side. AFAIK Dr. Earl Geddes (who once offered me a job, but I took more money elsewhere, sorry Earl!) was the first to remark on this. Higher Order Modes or HOMs, somewhere in all these references GedLee LLC

Anyway at the present time I still contend:
1) Many many horns are just copied visually from something previous by people that don't really know what they are doing. In this I'm including the whole universe of speakers, especially lower-priced PA stuff made for cheap.
2) Most horns are designed for coverage (dispersion) first and foremost, NOT sound quality.
3) But there is still something magic about a well done horn
4) I think we'll see more conventional tweeters loaded by "waveguides" which don't have a universally agreed definition but I think of in the hi-fi world as a less strongly loading horn, usually more open and shallower and driven from a typical tweeter.. This can avoid the problematic characteristics of compression-driven full horns, while significantly improving the overall performance of the tweeter as far as power handling and low frequency response.
5) I still miss the JBL "baby's ass" horns from back in the day. I guess the baby grew up!

 

I thought this thread was about horns on albums.

 

I've tried quite a few amps but I found the differences between amps largely anemic, most of the improvements or differences I heard in the low end. I attribute this to several factors. The extremely benign impedance load of the 4367 in the midrange, and the fact unlike most speakers with a big, well damped woofer, it is not a difficult load on an amp at all. The lowest impedance dip is to 5.5ohms.

But to answer your question with a bit of insight for each one...

Oliver Sayes 2a3 fleawatt amp 2.5wpc - Lovely and lush sounding midrange, I attribute almost all sonics I heard to the tubes I used. The EML tubes had a warmpth and tubbiness that I found engaging and interesting for a time but later on started to dislike. I prefer solid state with the JBL. This was the last tube amp I tried. Also, I tried some gold lion tubes and it actually sounded a lot more like a solid state amp but the bass was very poor with electronic music or even double bass heavy jazz pieces. Not a good match, I assume due to the transformer windings becoming saturated during those musical pieces with strong bass.

I also tried with the JBL *very* briefly a Pass Labs XA30.5 and compared it to my reference at the time, the Kinki Studio EX-M1. Reason why I could only play with the Pass Labs for a brief time is I had sold it to help fund my new JBL purchase and I had to pack it up and give it to my dealer the same day I recieved ownership of my new JBL. So I only listened to a few hours. But based on my brief time with it, I would say that the bass had a rounded, more natural sounding texture to it that gave a strong illusion, or sense, if you will, of the bass having a more refined character to it. Saying it had a 'rounder' sound signature is all I can really attribute to it at least for the brief time I had it. I really needed to spend more time but I couldnt.

The aforementioned Kinki Studio EX-M1 was a very poor match with my JBL. Over 45dB of gain on that integrated amp, it made the volume control extremely finnicky and I was never able to have much control with the volume. Eiether too quiet or too loud. Nothing inbetween. I later sold that for the Akitika GT-102 power amp. This was a very cheap amp, only costs $300 direct from Akitika, and offers up 50/60/80 watts into 8/6/4 ohms. I found it perfect combined with my balanced dac which output 4V into my preamp, the matching Akitika pre and a Schiit Gungnir.

This was always temporary for me, I always intended to upgrade to something much more high end. That finally happened in March of this year when I bought a McIntosh MC462 and C53 amp and preamp. Obviously this was complete overkill for my use, as I rarely strained my Akitika amp, and to my calcluations never asked for more than 75W which the Aktika could manage to do for peaks. But even then... the differences I heard in bass was extraordinary. Way more woofer control. For the first time in two years since I owned my speakers, I got a complaint by one of my tenants to turn the volume down! That's how big of a difference its made. As for everything else, well not only does it sound better, I now have a beautiful heirloom piece of gear or two on my shelf I can feel proud owning.


Wow I went off on quite a tangent here talking about MY system... well maybe it will prove useful for you if you do decide to get a JBL speaker. You can apply a lot of my experience with all the amps I've had with many speakers in the JBL lineup, from L100, 4429, S3900 and of course mine, the 4367.

 

Since I can’t really do any auditioning now and am waiting for things to return to normal before my planed purchase of a pair of the new JBL 100 I’ve been spending a lot of time with my Klipsch Cornwalls. Still love them. Now I’m thinking I’ve one more thing to investigate. GPA Altec Speakers.

Last week I got to hear a pair of Altec A5 that a friend picked up used. They are fairly new or I guess I should say clones since they were made with all new Great Planes Audio drivers in custom A5 Voice of the Theater cabinets. They looked great. Fantastic build quality and very impressive sound. They were being driving by vintage Sony ES gear and sounded fantastic. He is contacting the he got them from to get all the info on them. Was told they were 5K for the pair new.

Curious to here from anyone with vintage Altec experience or experience with GPA Altec Clones.

 

Agreed that Cessaro is very special.

disclaimer: I'm a Cessaro dealer in Nashville, TN

 

I have had the Altec 604D and now the GPA 604 and crossovers. They are in some beautiful 1958 teakwood 607A cabinets that I’ve braced and adjusted the ports.

It’s been a labor of love to get these where they are today. Midrange is a strong suit but the bass can be shy and they don’t do audiophile type imaging, tho the soundstage is pretty good. They don’t disappear quite like some other speakers might.

A couple of subs is a given with these I think. I run four and that’s hitting the sweet spot.

What they do well is create a cohesive lively and dynamic character that is pretty good with most genre of music. The sweet spot is anywhere in the house. They can startle with their dynamic and live sound.

I’m driving them with a Luxman 590II and it works really well. Driving them with tubes gives a bit more of a dimensional sound but I love the versatility of this SS integrated. It seems the GPA really like more power than the 604D.

I think the newer JBL I’d love to hear, and some of the new Klipsch. These are probably better choices for most, as the Altecs really need quite large cabinets for the best they can give.

Cheers
RW

 

I would be curious too.

What horn is in the A5's?

And, what are the drivers and crossover?

GPA was started from some of the original Altec people, so in that respect, they are more like Altec and less of a clone.

 

The best horns I've heard so far are the Avantgarde's. Very uncompressed.
Not cheap though.

 

i recently heard several pairs of Accapella ... they are very good indeed. the ones with the ION plasma tweeter add layer of detail that is really tough to beat. i have also heard very good things of Avantgarde models.

 

I thought it was a quiz and the answer was "Arkansas."

 

A friend of mine has a pair of JBL Studio 580s in his living room system. The replaced a large pair of Tekton speakers (forget model) which he'd been using for a year. Took him about 2 days of comparing to ditch the Tektons.
I only listened to them briefly so have no opinion of their sound. I will say they are not visually appealing to me.

 

Hey Sand I forgot you numbered a pair of A5s in your collection.

Per the owner they are 1005B horns and look like them. He also said the only variation from vintage A5s is the woofer. His use a 416. That and all driver are sourced from GPA and apparently the guy that makes them uses a “popular modified crossover” that makes them appropriate for home use. Still waiting for the rest of the information.

How big of a room are yours in? What horns are using and how far is your listening position.

As for commercial manufacturers I noticed Delgado mentioned above. His horns have made the Klipsch Heritage Speakers into something very special. If I have the room in my new house for the Cornwall 4 they will be at the top of my list.

 

This is from the Avantgarde website explaining the rationale of their round horn designs.


"THE HORN FUNCTION
Basically, there are two mathematical algorithms for calculating the precise horn shape:

Exponential horns which emerged in the 1920´s, are based on the conception that an even sound wave is emitted at the beginning of the horn. As one part of the sound waves namely that along the central horn axis has to travel a shorter distance than those parts who follow the horn curvature, this theory turned out to be wrong. The wave front within an exponential horn is slightly bent and causes so called colorations, which means changes of tonality during reproduction.

Latest scientific research has shown, that a perfect sound emission can be achieved by using spherical horns. Instead of the 90-degree horn opening of an exponential horn, the spherical horn allows an even transition due to its broad opening of 180 degree. These algorithms are based on the knowledge that the wave surface at the horn throat is not a plane, but is dome shaped.

Spherical horns result in a linear and constant sound wave emission along the entire frequency range. A wide and well-controlled directivity over the entire frequency spectrum is achieved. The spherical horn shows a linear decline at its lower cut-off frequency point. The typical bumpy response of exponential horns does not occur."

--------------

I have been using my pair of Avantgarde Duo speakers (v.2 with the ctrl 220 woofer section) about 20 years now (time flies! see my profile for pics), and consider myself fortunate to have a large listening space, and some excellent tube amplification to drive them. 10 watts gives plenty of slam with these speakers!

 

I bi-amped my old big JBL PRO system with McIntosh amps and loved them The MC462 would be my first choice to drive my Klipschorns if they were available at anything resembling a sane price here in Canada.

 

I have three pairs but they are the A7 model, not the A5. The primary difference is that the A7's come with either the 511B horn or the 811B horn. The 511B can be crossed over at 500-Hz. as compared to the smaller 811B horn that is crossed over at 800-Hz. in the A7's.

The 811B is the same horn that is used in the Model 19's and is crossed over in them at 1,200-Hz.

The 511B and the 811B are sectoral exponential horns and have 5-cells arranged in a single row.

The horns on the A5's are typically Altec multicellular horns with a total of 10-cells arranged in two rows of five cells.

Here is a link to Jeff's Place, where he has a pair of restored A5's.

♫ Altec A5 VOTT's - Jeff's Place

The A5's are designed to be smaller versions on the A4's and were designed for small to medium sized theaters.

The A7's, which were introduced later, in the late 60's, were designed to for use in venues up to about 800 people.

That is fine. Most use either that woofer or the Altec 515.

I use the AP12-500 crossover from ALK Engineering that was designed as an upgrade from the Klipsch OEM crossover network that is used in the La Scala's.

The room is approximately 450 sq. ft. and is a little bit larger than a 2-car garage. It is about the same overall shape, but has a 3'x6' section by the front door that extends outward. Also, the rear wall under the AC where the left A7 is positioned, runs along at a diagonal, being 6' deeper at the other corner where the TV and the front mains for the SS stereo and 5.1 channel HT speakers are sitting.

I mostly sit about 12'-14' back from the A7's, which are positioned at about a 90° angle from the HT/stereo system.

I did a tour of my former audio room and have it below my equipment listing, if you woul like to get a better idea. It is complete with photos and descriptions.

 

[QUOTE="just
Wow I went off on quite a tangent here talking about MY system... well maybe it will prove useful for you if you do decide to get a JBL speaker. You can apply a lot of my experience with all the amps I've had with many speakers in the JBL lineup, from L100, 4429, S3900 and of course mine, the 4367.[/QUOTE]
Not the same class, but I’m curious if you’ve heard Tannoy Arden or Klipsch Cornwall IV in comparison to the 4367.

 

I just got some 2 way audio like cross overs, they cross at 1200 hz, 35 dollars a piece.
I am always building something and just need some cross overs to get them up and running without spending a fortune.
I put them on my big Altec's , A5's I guess they would be.
They have 515 woofers and 1003 horns with 288 driver's.
They really sound good, I had gpa model 19 crossovers on them forever and liked them, but at the time they were 175 each.
These sound way better, I was really shocked.
I think I will have to get about 3 or 4 more pairs for future builds at those prices.
Just thought I would put this out there in case someone is on a tight budget.

 

Not to debate opinion but Klipsch Heritage models like my Cornwall II really benefit from tube amps like the Line Magnetic LM211IA I have them paired with. If you you are referring to the HT oriented Klipsch offerings then I can agree.



I played brass right up to college so I appreciate horns no doubt!

 

@justanotherhifienthusiast, you need to update you Klipsch knowledge, may I suggest you start here:

An Unofficial Klipsch Jubilee Buyer's Guide

I have been enjoying a brand new pair of Jubilee's since September.

 

Crossovers are very important!

Still, 1200-Hz. is OK for Model 19's but the large horns work best when crossed over around 500-Hz. They will provide you with a far enriched midrange, which is what Altec drivers and horns do best.

Check out the above post on the two way Jubilee's.

Good to hear from you sunrayjack! I'm in Tennessee now, keep in touch. Got to have the large horn gang together again.

 

Same here glass, this site always makes me feel like coming home.
Were in tennessee, I'm in augusta ga

 

Current state of horns....