The ethics of the resale

Discussion in 'Marketplace Discussions' started by hbbfam, Apr 15, 2014.

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  1. Malina

    Malina Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    I agree. I'm also thinking about how my brother knew a guy back in the 70's who worked at Ticketron and he would print out tickets for us and it was some kind of scam and we got great seats. Rush fans - I was at this show at 11 years old and taking pictures of Geddy while I leaned against the stage. So I took advantage of the scam when I could - guilty as charged.

     
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  2. BrokenByAudio

    BrokenByAudio Forum Resident


    "I'm sure you don't feel that way, but if you look at an income distribution chart then you're way up there compared to the rest of this country and the world. And let me add that if your rent was due and you couldn't pay it then you would be flipping those Stones tickets in a heartbeat for as much as you could get."

    That's what you said in response to Wright when he said he would sell a $500 ticket for $500 bucks. He established and declared his principle on the matter and you're telling him he wouldn't do it just because you wouldn't do the same thing. That's both presumptuous and abusive.

    I'm not particularly concerned about what other people said to you, but you have no right to be telling people what they would or would not do under some set of circumstances.

    And just so you know, I tend to agree with your side of the (general) argument, but that doesn't give you the right to make the sort of assertion I take issue with here.
     
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  3. Malina

    Malina Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    I understand your position. You took issue with what I said to Wright, but my post was after posts by Wright where he said flipping is "immoral and unethical". He also stated, "A lot of hard-working people take pride in their honesty towards others, without resorting to price-gouging." So if I flip on occasion then I am immoral, unethical and dishonest according to Wright. That's a little harsh. You might even call it "abusive". I was only pointing out that it is easy to call someone immoral, unethical and dishonest when you have that luxury - morals are a luxury of the rich. You took issue with my comments, but not the previous comments by Wright wherein he called flippers (i.e. me) unethical, immoral and dishonest. And just to correct you a little bit, I only pointed that it's easy to call someone names like immoral and dishonest when you have that luxury. I still maintain that if Wright had to flip a cd to keep a roof over his head or take care of those close to him, that is what he would do. "Morals" have a certain grey area when your stomach is growling or you are sleeping in the woods, as I have done. I'm not talking about legal versus illegal activity. I'm talking about a moral code that says "no flipping allowed" - see how long that lasts when you get an eviction notice. I think Wright is a good guy from what I can tell, we just have a minor disagreement on the flipping thing and I did take issue with being called immoral, unethical and dishonest - but I'm not all bent out of shape about it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I was just trying to sway his opinion a little towards mine and I don't think he took major offense, although I could be wrong.
     
  4. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    Yeah, but are most people flipping to make their rent or to keep food on their table? And Id also think that the integrity of an adult would be more matured than an 11 year old child.

    This thread reminds me of a friend if mine who moved from Brisbane to South Korea. She said its a whoooole different ballgame there. The philosophy is its basically accepted and even expected that a business person or seller is suppose to try and cheat you. A very different set of "codes" there. Nothing against S.K., just an observation.
     
  5. Malina

    Malina Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    I just gave an extreme example to illustrate a point. I don't know if the inability to pay for rent or food makes an immoral, unethical and dishonest act no longer immoral, unethical or dishonest. What do you think? My position is that flipping is perfectly acceptable in any event, unless I don't have a copy yet.
     
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  6. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    I think there is a lot of difference between stealing for food and stealing to pay for a vacation. Just an example. Hey, you know, we get into moral/ethical discussions it gets sticky. It gets into all that "Well, things arent like they use to be in the days of John Wayne when a mans word and a handshake ..yadda yadda yadda". But, to me, there is some truth to the idea that everything is just relative truth now and there are really no wrong or rights. Its based upon more "you are right from your side and I am right from mine". To quote Bob Dylan. That thief :D
     
  7. PHILLYQ

    PHILLYQ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    You may think that stealing a loaf of bread is wrong, but what if it's a mother stealing that loaf to feed her hungry kids?
     
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  8. stevenalejandro

    stevenalejandro Forum Resident

    Location:
    san antonio, tx
    There is a limit on RSD titles as set out by the RSD organization and the record stores that participate. I think most customers know that now but I can say that in the early days of the event some people (who would walk up to the registers with multiple copies of titles) would always react negatively when we told them there were limits of one title per person. Almost without fail they acted like douchebags. Clearly flippers angry that we dared to interfere with their flipping plans. As far as buying used titles from sellers at the store I work at I can tell you that very often when someone brings in something that has crazy value we will tell them. Often we say this is worth XXX amount but we can only give you X amount for it. Often we give them the choice to sell it to us or keep it to sell on the open market. I think they appreciate the honesty. Sometimes we have bought some obscure LP unaware of the market value and when we found out we will tell the customer when they come back in and offer them more money. There are times when we discover value in something and we are unable to contact the seller so there is that. Often as well we will sell items of value on ebay cheaper to 1- sell it quicker, 2-give some buyer a deal and 3 - because we know how much we invested in it. Do we buy low and sell high as much as we can? Well obviously. But we never purposefully shortchange a seller to gouge a buyer. Never.
     
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  9. JFS3

    JFS3 Senior Member

    Location:
    Hooterville
    If it makes anyone feel better, I'll be glad to take any sealed first state Butcher Covers that anyone has off your hands for $3.98.
     
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  10. Laibach

    Laibach Forum Resident

    What I consider completely unethical is the reselling of items that are promotional and specifically labelled as "not for resale".

    I believe the industry's practice is to punch a hole in one of the corners of the CD, to differentiate and mark them as free, promotional copies. I've done business with a couple of vendors who shipped these CDs, which really annoyed me since the CDs were never intended for resale and the merchant made a 100% profit in the operation.

    The vendor(s) never indicated in the product description that the items had a punched hole. Of course, had I known about it I would have never placed the order.
     
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  11. Malina

    Malina Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    A couple vendors? I've been buying hundreds of out of print sealed cd's over the past couple years and promo copies are everywhere and so are cutouts from the cd going out of print. Almost every box set I've purchased has been a cutout and most sellers don't note this - you have to ask first. Or you can snag it if it's Buy It Now or on Amazon and then sent a message asking if it is a cutout and please cancel if so. Sometimes I do that if I think the item will sell and then claim I forgot to ask first and I'm so sorry. So many of Amazon sellers are crooked. Just the other day I got a cutout and I asked for a return and to cover my return shipping. He said he would do that, but Amazon allows him to sell cutouts. I laid out the Amazon rules to that clown and shut him up fast, but he was still weasling on me. A cutout should be noted because it affects the value of the item. The whole purpose of the cutout is to devalue the item.

    I bought an Elektra box set signed by Jac Holzman and the seller was some kind of big time industry lawyer and he described the box as "perfect condition" or something along those lines. Of course he sent me a cutout and we got in a big fight when I asked for a $5.00 refund. I was surprised that even Jac Holzman gets cutouts to give to his buddies - it was his damn label! How about a little respect? Haha. But this lawyer was such a jerk. He was willing to take the box back and pay for my return shipping, but refused to refund me 5 bucks because of his pride. The way he contorted himself trying to justify his incorrect listing was mind boggling. I got screwed by a scummy music industry lawyer on Ebay! :laugh: I told him I was a lawyer and would sue him and get a judgment against him when he fails to appear in court. He told me he flies to New York all the time and he would be in court to kick my ass. It was hilarious. Anyway, I don't mind a hole punch in the insert before the insert goes into the case (promo). I don't like the cutout that goes through the case (out of print cutout). I will settle when necessary.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
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  12. Malina

    Malina Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    The merchant bought those promo copies from either a record company guy selling them out the back door or a media guy who got it for free because of his job, so the merchant did pay for it. The promo copies are billed to the recording artist so that band or person is paying the record company for the cd, assuming that the artists recoups.
     
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  13. BrokenByAudio

    BrokenByAudio Forum Resident

    I really don't have a problem with the concept in general--the idea of resale. I've certainly paid my share of higher prices to get things I wanted and I've refused to pay others when the asking price is too dear. I'm sure that others in this thread have pointed out that often people are buying up available stock anticipating that it will be worth more in the future. They are taking a risk at that point. They may or may not be able to unload the stuff at a later date or they mary have to wait longer to unload it than they'd had liked--that ties up capital.

    This is a collector hobby, not life or death. Name your poison. Pay for what you want, or not. If it is critically important to you to obtain every "X" title you desire, you'd better be very sharp, have plenty of cash reserves, and above all PAY ATTENTION AND MOVE FAST.
     
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  14. Wright

    Wright Forum Resident

    No. My first post, where I used the words "unethical" and "immoral," was a direct response to the original poster (who used those very same words as the starting point of his discussion). It seems like you are acting very defensive here.
     
  15. Wright

    Wright Forum Resident

    Please. I responded to the original poster, who set off the discussion based on the recent Dave's Picks situation (which I find troubling). He didn't even use the term "flipper". I then responded to a hypothetical scenario someone else offered about Stones tickets. What makes you think this is all about you?

    That thing about dishonesty is something that you yourself read into one of my comments. I was talking about honest, hard-working people (virtually an idiomatic term), and you for some reason see that as a point about dishonesty?
     
  16. Baba Oh Really

    Baba Oh Really Certified "Forum Favorite"

    Location:
    mid west, USA
    The answer to your question is "no", it's capitalism at it's finest.
     
  17. Ghostworld

    Ghostworld Senior Member

    Location:
    US
    It's sucks. Scalpers, go blow yourselves.
     
  18. Paranoid Android

    Paranoid Android Forum Resident

    You are the one who has to look at yourself in the mirror everyday and do or not do things to be able to sleep at night. Drops mic, and leaves stage.
     
  19. Turntable

    Turntable Senior Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    This is Chad Kassen's business motto and the main reason why I will never buy from Acoustic Sounds
     
  20. BrokenByAudio

    BrokenByAudio Forum Resident


    Chad Kassem has invested a fantastic amount of money into the business of vinyl and his Quality Records puts out the best vinyl I have experienced. Personally I feel like the entire universe of vinyl-inclined music and audio lovers owes him a debt of gratitude.

    But that's just me.
     
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  21. ubertrout

    ubertrout Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I understand that this thread is about folks who buy large quantities of new limited-run stuff and then immediately put the stuff on eBay. They suck.

    That said, I sell a fair bit myself, and it's generally stuff I've had in my collection, which I discover has gone OOP and appreciated over the years, and then I have to decide if I want to make some room and money, or keep the disc. If so I'll generally price at where I think the market is. Sometimes I'm on the money and it sells within a week or two, sometimes I overestimate and it sits unsold (in which case I get to keep it longer), and sometimes I underestimated and it sells within 24 hours. The beautiful thing about the resale market is that it allows folks to get media which is no longer in stores, and the only considerations are the scarcity of the item and what people are willing to pay.

    I don't quite understand why folks things resellers should charge MSRP, and those who don't are gouging. In most cases, if I'd only get MSRP for the item, I'd just keep it.
     
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  22. Sean V

    Sean V Well-Known Member

    Best post of the thread. This is really what it boils down to.

    People that bought houses in 2004 and sold in 2007 before the crash to the tune of huge profits took a risk and did well for themselves. If your relative told you he had done this, most would congratulate them and secretly wish they had done the same. I don't think anyone would think of them as unethical.

    Why, all of the sudden, when you are dealing with media, rather than houses, art, or cars, does it become a debate about ethics? Some guy want to stand in line at 3AM freezing to get RSD stuff, pay 12% + to Ebay/Paypal, buy packing materials then gamble on returns that may or may not happen (Zaireeka box set anyone?)...more power to you.
     
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  23. Bart

    Bart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston
    I have not read the entire thread and hope this hasn't been asked and answered, but . . .

    When the Dead and Rhino limit the number of copies, such that one's only recourse is to purchase a highly marked-up copy on the secondary market . . .

    How much "worse" is it to just bittorrent it?
     
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  24. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Anyone who has an ethical problem with someone selling something for more than they paid for it should also make it an ethical policy never to buy a used item for less than the seller paid for it, even if the seller is asking for less than he paid for it. Don't plan to do that, then don't complain about sellers who make a profuit behaving unethically.
    There is no fairness to an ethical position that allows sellers to take a loss but not make a gain.
     
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  25. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    You can't figure out for yourself that it is a significantly bigger ethical issue to infringe someone's copyright than to pay a mutually agreed price in a legal transaction (where there's certainly no ethical issue for the buyer, whatever your stance is on the seller making a profit)?
     
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