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The Falcon and The Winter Soldier

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Jeff Kent, Mar 22, 2021.

  1. Usually on other adventures (they would argue) unless (hence the other comics although there was nothing saying they happened at the same time, I assumed, that like governments, they could only deal with one crisis at a time) the events in other titles occurred at the same time.
    BeatleJWOL likes this.
  2. Or when a single hero tackles a baddie when it would be much quicker to resolve with another, more appropriate super hero instead. Such is the world of comic books ;)

    If I was, say, Peter Parker fighting some ultra-tough villain I’d grab my cell phone and call Thor. Of course, comics would just be one massive cross-over then.
    BeatleJWOL likes this.
  3. vince

    vince Stan Ricker's son-in-law

    We got a real "Point/Counterpoint" going on here:
    "I say...let them crash!"

    David Campbell likes this.
  4. Well they did do that sometimes if they good guys weren’t fighting with each other LOL. One thing I always liked about Marvel is that the heroes didn’t always agree or get along.
    Shawn likes this.
  5. Honestly that's been one downside to the modern comic book movie era (Nolanverse onwards, really) with this emphasis on cramming as much realism into these stories as possible. There's got to be a balance there.

    Sometimes things just happen for the sake of the story and that's okay. But, I've said it before: being overly analytical about films is something that often happens when somebody's already checked out of the story. That could be for social/political reasons, genre fatigue, watching something with somebody else that you're just not into and decide to come and tell other fans of it on the internet how much not into it you were, etc etc. If you're engaged, interested, and hooked, a lot of stuff can be absorbed.

    I'm a Star Trek fan. I know how satisfying it is when i's are dotted and t's are crossed. But it's not a requirement for good storytelling.
    Shawn, toddrhodes and wayneklein like this.
  6. Agreed. You either accept the story (suspension of disbelief) or you don’t. If you don’t very few movies will appeal to you. It’s also a sign that the movie probably isn’t for you. There is, however, a threshold that can be crossed in drama that damages the good will of the audience. Sometimes it’s a fine line and Nolan likes to push it to that line in some films. Even his ‘realism’ can border on absurdity and I like most of his films (although “Tenet” was an example of Nolan crawling up his own backside).
    Vidiot, Shawn and BeatleJWOL like this.
  7. Squealy

    Squealy Forum Hall Of Fame

    As far as "why didn't they call the Avengers".... do the Avengers even exist anymore in the time frame of these two shows? Tony Stark and Black Widow and (the original) Vision are dead, Thor is across the universe with the Guardians of the Galaxy, Steve Rogers has gone back to the past. The only team members who are left other than Sam and Wanda are Rhodes (who we saw but who didn't get involved for some reason), Hawkeye (but wasn't he going to return to his family) and the Hulk (no idea what he's doing... but he's an unpredictable character to have on your side). There are other super-heroes around like Spider-Man, Ant-Man and Doctor Strange, but they are more distant from the Avengers circle. Captain Marvel doesn't spend much time on Earth either, and even Nick Fury has gone to space.

    Are there plans for more Avengers movies?
  8. No official word yet. There's been suggestions, mainly from casting announcements and background appearances, that we may get some kind of Young Avengers film.

    Every Potential Young Avenger Already In The Marvel Cinematic Universe

    The only real stretch in this list so far is Kid Loki. Vision or Hawkeye or our new Cap would be great veteran leaders for a new group of heroes.
  9. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    United States
    I did not want a new Cap period. I felt they really forced the notion that the world needed the symbol of Captain America. I did not want Sam, Bucky or obviously John Walker in that role. Just let it pass with Steve, who in my mind IS Captain America.
  10. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Hollywood, USA
    That's not what the comic book did. There have been quite a few different Captain Americas over the years.

    I gotta say, though, I kind of wince when we see superheroes that are basically ordinary humans in fancy outfits or with cool gadgets, and no actual super-powers. I'm reminded of the scene in Justice League where the Flash turns to Bruce Wayne and says, "I can run almost at the speed of light. What's your superpower?" And Batman answers, "I'm rich." So there is that issue. Iron Man, Ant-Man, The Wasp, Black Widow, Hawkeye, the new Captain America, and several others all fall into this category: very highly-trained people who have cool costumes and gadgets (flying wings, remote-controlled weapons, explosive rockets, etc.)... but they're not superheroes in the way Spiderman, Superman, the Hulk, Thor, or the original Captain America are. You're either born with super-powers, or you're genetically altered. Otherwise, you're just a highly-skilled soldier or spy. Nothing wrong with that, but is that really being a superhero?

    I can make the opposite argument: if a writer doesn't dot the i's and cross the t's, then it's lazy writing. If they really work at it, they can explain everything and cover all the bases. I think one of the reasons the last few Marvel movies (particularly the Infinity War saga) worked so well is because they tied it all together so well, and all the other movies were complimentary pieces of the puzzle that enlarged and enhanced the story. When they let things slide, it's not as satisfying to the viewers, especially super-critical/crazy fans who analyze every pixel and every second of every story.

    On the other hand: there's a famous Hitchcock quote where he was commenting on how certain elements of North by Northwest make no sense. He laughed and said, "well, by the time the audience realizes that, the movie will be over and we'll already have their money." And when pressed, he shrugged and said, "you know, it's only a mooooovie." So there is that point of view.

    In the case of Marvel franchises like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, it's clear to me that they're going through endless development and hundreds of story meetings to make sure that all their projects gibe with each other, even films and shows as diverse as WandaVision and Guardians of the Galaxy. Kevin Feige has said many times that he wants to have a "synergy" between all their characters and stories, so a major plot detail that happens in one -- like the Blip -- will be reflected in all their subsequent films and TV shows. Me personally, I'm impressed with that kind of attention to detail.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021
  11. Squealy

    Squealy Forum Hall Of Fame

    Black Widow didn't even have any devices or armor to protect her. I raise an eyebrow when these characters are able to survive being thrown into walls and so on despite not having any unusual physical strength.

    I also wonder why they don't manufacture more Iron Man and Ant-Man and Falcon suits and have whole battalions of people using them. Why not replicate the conditions of Peter Parker's spider bite (whatever they were in the MCU) and make more Spider-Men?

    I couldn't really understand what John Walker was supposed to accomplish with the mantle of Captain America when he didn't have the super-soldier attributes Steve had, and Sam is basically in the same position, though he has a vibranium suit and his Falcon wings to help him. I would have thought the writers would contrive a way to have him injected with the serum like Walker eventually was. I guess his big speech indicated we were supposed to believe his strong character was enough.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021
    Vidiot, Luke The Drifter and budwhite like this.
  12. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Hollywood, USA
    Yeah, anybody who's studied martial arts before (and I've dabbled with it) understands that if you're a woman who weighs about 110 pounds, and you slug a man who's about 6'5" tall and weighs 220 pounds, you're not going to be able to immediately knock him down. Not unless you're holding a lead pipe. Of course, there are exceptions like Jessica Jones, where she's been genetically altered and does have super strength to a degree, and the ability to heal very quickly. But in a regular fight with two people, it's going to a lot harder to take down an opponent who's 50% bigger than you are, particularly if they're in excellent shape (as movie villains tend to be).

    I agree, that was a big lapse... and yet they did it in the comic book as well. Of course, eventually John Walker did become genetically altered... <spoiler alert> which led to his downfall.

    It's an ongoing plot element that most people who get injected with the super-soldier serum go crazy (as with Jessica Jones' mother) or die in a few days or weeks, so it doesn't always work with test subjects. There was a line in Captain America that obliquely referred to this, that Steve Rogers was not the first person that the government and Howard Stark experimented on, but he just so happened to be a perfect genetic match for the serum where it would be extraordinarily effective. I think Luke Cage would be another person who was genetically altered; Daredevil was somebody where he had "radioactive chemicals" splashed on his eyes, which blinded him but somehow enhanced his hearing and other senses to effectively give him incredible abilities. That's more of a stretch to me: I complained to an acquaintance of mine who wrote for the Daredevil Netflix show, "hey, what if Daredevil ran into five villains who had 9mm automatic weapons and they just sprayed him with bullets for 10 seconds?" My complaint was that the villains always wanted to just kick his ass with karate and Bojutsu sticks, which never went well for them. He laughed and said, "hey, I just work here -- we're trying to keep the show on the air, not comply with reasonable logic."

    Granted, it's all a bunch of comic-book bullspit, but when there's some thought and logic put behind the story, it at least gives it the air of reality.
    kouzie and budwhite like this.
  13. The James Bond films routinely have their normal human being hero getting the stuffing knocked out of him in ways that would leave most people in traction.

    There are a lot of film injuries that would instantly kill in real life and they don't because...well, I dunno.
    Shawn likes this.
  14. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Hollywood, USA
    I think we have to accept that Bond is extremely well-trained and can take a punch, plus he can resist pain to a point. I learned in fight training that one of the hardest things to learn is how to take a punch in the face and not overreact. If you can stay calm and fight back, that's a huge part of it. Bond has been knocked out enough that, clearly, even he has his limits. The filmmakers have said many times, "the moment the audience believes Bond can't be hurt or killed, the films are over."
    BeatleJWOL likes this.
  15. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    United States
    Of course making these things "real" has its limits. I thought Nolan's Batman came the closest.

    There are some movie tropes that have never made any sense. Captain America is captured in First Avenger and taken to Red Skull. One bullet to the head and Cap is dead, but of course this doesn't happen. And that scenario comes up a lot in these films. Superman tends to get a pass on these things because he actually is bulletproof.

    The Incredibles did a good job with this when Mr. Incredible and Frozone are talking, and Frozone says the villain had him but started monologuing, and they laugh about it.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
  16. MrSka57

    MrSka57 Forum Resident

    Syracuse, New York
    As dull as WandaVision? That was a slog.
  17. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    I feel like WANDA-VISION was doing something wildly different, something that couldn't be done with a standard franchise movie. I felt like my investment was rewarded.

    FALCON & WINTER SOLDIER, on the other hand, feels like one of the movies padded out. Trimmed to two hours plus and released as, I dunno, CAPTAIN AMERICAN RE-BORN, I wouldn't have complained.
    Crawdad, Vidiot and MrSka57 like this.
  18. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Hollywood, USA
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  19. rock4ev

    rock4ev Forum Resident

    CA USA
    First things first. I am not bashing anyone, nor would I know who to give slight too.
    But this show, I watched and have been a fan of the movies as well as comics since the 70's did not resemble either (comics we can leave out), though it's the visual show I am referring to here.
    The Marvel run was special in so many aspects, talented people and good decisions being made by many within the group which in turn made the talent pool impressive and immense.
    Almost like recipe perfection, and what was on the screen felt and looked like chemistry of a band (music) that has great players that know exactly what their doing and how to utilize their skills to make whatever music they do crazy good/special.
    In my opinion, this series made the headline actors portray/act nothing like their characters were and carried themselves in the movies they came from and were in.
    I noticed the glaring difference when I was recently re watching them in the movies starting in order of their appearance first and throughout the film's.
    I do not feel the actors were bad in this TV series, just the decisions that are above/behind the actors, and others in the process of the end result, they were way off the mark.
    Watching the characters in this series was nothing like how they handled crisis and even internal crisis or situations that they were in many times throughout the movies that came before and were in.
    It is so glaring if you go back and watch the movies and how they deal with intense issues, situations and even the light/comedy.
    Not even close.
    Characteristics of the characters before and throughout the movies is almost completely not there.
    Just my opinion and no need to be rude if anyone's is different all are entitled to them, I am only commenting on what I saw and thought, with context of the multiple movies being the blueprint of the characters.
    "The story was/is different" doesn't really excuse this as their movie appearances were in standalone films at first and before they intertwined and connected, which in process of those movies till conclusion showed/created the characters identity.
    What this TV series showed of the characters didn't resemble their previous mannerisms and completely missed what made them and the movies before special.
    I do believe it was a success as people including myself invested years in the characters and we tuned in.
    Still something looked and felt awkward, and if it leads into anything like what just ended, it is over for me with them, and most likely any others that noticed the giant glare.
    If that turns out to be the case, only new and unknowing of before this series will be the audience to carry the future of what was once the biggest screen success of the millennium.
    This was not the superheroes we had been seeing ever acting like before.
    budwhite and PH416156 like this.
  20. PH416156

    PH416156 Alea Iacta Est


    There's a lot that I can say I agree with,

    As for the rest, great production values and visual effects that were big screen worthy, but weak story overall. Good for Mackie and Stan that Marvel set'em for life, they're not exactly the most charismatic stars. I thought the actor portraying John Walker was dreadful.

    In my Vision (oops), Marvel hit the jackpot with the initial casting; Downey Jr can carry a movie; Evans too. Hemwsorth (imho the weaker of the lot) showed he could in the Thor films. Same for Cumberbatch. Paul Rudd can. Boseman could.

    I have yet to see Black Widow but have little doubts about Johansson. And there were all those amazing talents, Redford, Douglas, Jackson, Weaving, Del Toro, to name a few, surrounding the main cast.

    I liked WandaVision but now it seems like Marvel are scraping the bottom of the barrell. Let's see what they've done with Loki. Not sure if I could digest a whole movie starring Hiddleston but I liked him in "The night manager", so if Loki is well written and produced, it cold be another TV winner for him.

    Imho there's just a nice 130-140 min "Falcon and Winter soldier" movie here, and I would've gladly avoided the same PC crap they've been shoving down our throats for years.
    budwhite and rock4ev like this.
  21. rock4ev

    rock4ev Forum Resident

    CA USA
    I agree, the screen worthy visuals were there, and in the movies they had that and actors that can carry a movie. The actors Mackie and Stan were great in the movies as we seen the be, so in the end yeah, it's the story that ruined this show or should I say ruined who the characters were/are from what they proved much better and perfect in the movies.
    As I stated in my post it is very glaring obvious how different they were in this series as opposed to the movies, and it didn't take that to see the bad story, it was the 're watching of the movies that really showed how easily and bad they ruined both characters characteristics their previous personalities that were great as well as worked perfectly in the movies. The PC and lecturing didn't need to be explained, peoples common sense (if they have any should know) like it's grade school or human behavior lessons to movie watchers. That stuff really ruined and took way from what could've been a much better series that used the time for actual interesting dialog and screen time.

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