The Finish Line for your Phono Cartridge- Stylus Wear by Mike Bodell

I spoke to Peter over the weekend. He's not really interested in getting involved in a public internet controversy without more facts.

 

Thats too bad. I was hoping he had some facts or experiences of it or lack thereof

 

Given the controversial way that thread was opened & responses I would expect the gorts deleted it.

 

Well he said he wanted to have it deleted, not surprising when no one sided with him.

 

Last I saw was after I hit the send button on my response. I assume there was more after, what was the gist?

 

Did you see much at all? Beyond the first page there wasnt much. 1 guy @Drewan77 , who had the cart said he used many styli on it and never experienced what he described about the cart wear. Thats the last I saw.

 

I did see folks saying they had not experienced cartridge wear-out. My reply was to say that I thought I was probably the "newb" from the other thread, and stating that I'm keeping an open mind about cartridge wear and was hoping to hear some input from folks who had experienced it. Then poof I guess.

 

I still don’t understand what he was claiming wears out in such a short time. Maybe I missed the details somewhere, but based on what I did see, I doubt it...

It seems to me if cartridge bodies regularly wore out in the same or less time than a stylus, there would be no reason/market for cartridges with replaceable styli.

 

Yes, I did comment about the same 1042 cartridge as the OP, his observations made no sense to me nor (apparently) anybody else. Contrary to what he claimed, I find this to be one of the most open minded and courteous audio forums with a lot of useful & well-reasoned information from people with great deal of experience.

Hostility like that doesn't belong here & I expected the thread to vanish earlier than it did.

 

We could never get him to explain anything about the phenomenon. Obviously, cartridges can fail catastrophically, but I don't think that's what he's referring to. On the other end, there could be subtle changes in sonics that he may be attuned to, like with interconnects or power cords or whatever, and he may have been able to recover some credibility by giving that as an explanation. But...nothing at all.

 

Could I suggest something as the thread starter? (Acknowledging that Mike Bodell did all the heavy lifting with the article itself and that some of the contributions here have been terrific). Let's not talk about someone in the third person. I'm certainly not in 'control' of this thread, any of you can take it where you want it-- but the main subject was stylus wear. The issue of cartridge wear/degradation is fascinating and probably should be addressed. I just don't want to provoke the member who first raised the cartridge wear topic by talking about him in the third person, nor do I want to see this thread closed. We could, I guess, open a new thread on the subject; I certainly don't have a problem discussing the issue on the merits.

 

Sorry for clouding the waters Bill. The issue was somewhat related to the topic, but indeed going personal/third person, although responding in kind, was in poor taste. I'd delete the post if I could but alas the forum does not give that option.

Edited to add: starting a thread on the subject would be moot.

 

Bill, thanks for calling Peter.

I understand that he can't speak about other brands.. Perhaps I will give it some time, and give Peter a call myself. I do own a few of his carts. I bought the Hyperion directly from him, not to mention several phone conversations when my Hyperion was in for repair, so we do have a personal relationship. Since this subject has been brought up, it piqued my interested in knowing if my two Soundsmith cartridges that are in storage will degrade significantly in the near future. In other words what is the shelf live of my Soundsmith cartridges in storage, and since we are talking about cartridge degradation how does it compare to the Soundsmith cartridge in use.

As I mentioned before, I asked Peter about stylus wear and without hesitation he told me 1000 hours. He didn't mention how many years it may take to get to a thousand hours.

 

No worries. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive - just want to be fair.

 

We have all been more than fair.

 

The 1,000 hours sounds like a good compromise between the conservative evaluations Mike found in researching his article and the 2,000 hour claims made for many high end cartridges.
Truth be told, apart from hearing his cartridges at shows-- and a while ago at that-- I've never had one. I should get one in here. Having just made some changes in cartridges recently, it really brought home how much difference the cartridge makes in sonic outcomes--

 

This is actually something I have wondered in my own consideration of Soundsmith cartridges (and non-replaceable-stylus carts in general), partially in light of the post earlier in this thread putting stylus retip expense in terms of cost per record played. Soundsmith’s literature (and I think even Peter Lederman’s verbal explanation in videos I have watched) says they can rebuild many times, as long as the internals are still in working order. I would be curious to know if there is some known average of how many rebuilds can be done, if internals are ever not in working order becasue of wear as opposed to acute damage, and what specifically would cause that wear.

Not meaning to keep anything off the original topic, but I think this is part of it because how many times you can retip/rebuild the same cartridge is definitely a factor in the total cost of ownership, which is in turn a factor in how cringe-worthy the idea of shorter-than-commonly-believed stylus life needs to be.

 

Here I address the so-called “compromise”: advanced stylus tips may last for at least 1,000 play hours compared to 2,000 hours. The 500 hour versus 1,000 hour marker was the precise target in my investigation. Is critical wear appropriately 500 hours depending on vertical tracking force (VTF) on an advanced diamond stylus tip shape (specifically a line contact) or 1,000 hours as has become conventional wisdom?

I’ve asked people who adhere to this longer life theory to show the community the research proving this point. To date that request remains outstanding. While one recognized expert may claim a 1,000 hour threshold, two with greater combined experience can be produced who disagree.

For why this debate is important please see post #4.1 by EdAInWestOC on 5-28-2019 @ 9:03AM in the link to Audionirvana below:

Stylus Wear- Mike Bodell's The Finish Line for Your Phonograph Stylus - Audionirvana.org

“People can do all of the necessary research to prove a technical point but all that is necessary to ruin that research is for one irresponsible comment to be published. In this day on the internet there is more misinformation than can be measured.”

Good defensible technical research is essential to learn and to convey the facts:

A Reminder That 'Fake News' Is An Information Literacy Problem - Not A Technology Problem

“Schools no longer teach source triangulation, conflict arbitration, separating fact from opinion, citation chaining, conducting research or even the basic concept of verification and validation. In short, we’ve stopped teaching society how to think about information, leaving our citizenry adrift in the digital wilderness increasingly saturated with falsehoods without so much as a compass or map to help them find their way to safety.”

Why we have an incredibly hard time accepting data, research, and facts that do not conform to our established and strongly held views:

cognitive dissonance | Definition & Facts

“Cognitive dissonance, the mental conflict that occurs when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information. The unease or tension that the conflict arouses in people is relieved by one of several defensive maneuvers: they reject, explain away, or avoid the new information; persuade themselves that no conflict really exists; reconcile the differences; or resort to any other defensive means of preserving stability or order in their conceptions of the world and of themselves.”

Besides technical research there is also what we observe assuming we know what we are looking at and how to interpret it:

Definition of EMPIRICAL

empirical adjective
em·pir·i·cal | \ im-ˈpir-i-kəl , em-\
variants: or less commonly empiric \ im-ˈpir-ik , em- \
Definition of empirical
1: originating in or based on observation or experience empirical data
2: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory an empirical basis for the theory
3: capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment empirical laws
How even scientists can be reluctant to “see” what is in front of them when it does not conform to their strongly held beliefs:

Paradigm shift - Wikipedia

“A paradigm shift, a concept identified by the American physicist and philosopher Thomas Kuhn, is a fundamental change in the basic concepts and experimental practices of a scientific discipline. Kuhn presented his notion of a paradigm shift in his influential book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962).

Kuhn contrasts paradigm shifts, which characterize a scientific revolution, to the activity of normal science, which he describes as scientific work done within a prevailing framework, or, paradigm. Paradigm shifts arise when the dominant paradigm under which normal science operates is rendered incompatible with new phenomena, facilitating the adoption of a new theory or paradigm.”

I am a scientist. I research to figure out how things work. In this case, my only solid bulletproof reference point is direct experience, an empirical data point. Second is the experience of others who use a cartridge I own, and who care for records as I do. Third, actual technical research evaluated with an open mind and by suspending judgement until I’ve consumed everything to which I gain access. Then I interview experts of all sorts. Finally I draw fact-based supportable conclusions, fully referenced and documented. I work hard to identify and if necessary reject hearsay, opinion, bias, and even conventional wisdom. Remember, my conclusions are simply to play only cleaned records, count play hours while listening for high frequency distortion, and have your cartridge advanced shaped stylus tip evaluated for critical wear by a qualified technician at about 500 to 600 hours of play.

In recent years I’ve used an Ortofon Cadenza Black MC phono cartridge with a nude Shibata-stylus tip on a boron cantilever. Supported by a hand-held counter I knew this cartridge had 800 hours of play when high frequency distortion was recognized by a musician friend of mine. I did not hear it to be frank (except for minor sibilance) and other folks experienced in vinyl who heard my system at that same time thought it sounded awesome.

Those 800 hours were played on records as clean as I can get them. Records were cleaned on either a VPI17 vacuum record cleaning machine using top flight cleaning solutions or in an 80kHz ultrasonic tank set up for records, or both. No record not first cleaned was ever played on my system.

I’m fastidious about turntable set up using proper tools to align my system. That includes setting a Baerwald alignment and dialing in 91-92 degree stylus rake angle (SRA) adjustment. The VTF is set to near the middle of the manufacturer’s suggested weight, fine tuned by ear. Those measurements are rechecked several times a year. Honestly, I don’t see how Ortofon could expect more care from a user of their cartridges.

After requisite due diligence I sent the Black to Expert Stylus to check my stylus tip. They reported back to me that it was “badly worn.” While not a rebuke (I called Mr. Wyndham Hodgson), I was led to believe this stylus should have been replaced several hundred hours earlier. They did not provide a photo as proof of serious wear but I have no reason to believe Expert would deceive me. This badly worn cartridge stylus tip played in nearly ideal conditions did not make 1,000 hours.

In my due diligence I read what Poster “5-String” had to say in the SHF thread “What are the symptoms of a failing phono cartridge?” He wrote:

“I used to have an Ortofon 2M Black, the one with the nude Shibata stylus. Every record I played was cleaned with the VPI. At approximately 650 hours of playing time, I took it to my audio dealer to examine it with the microscope. It needed replacement.”

Poster “5-String” goes on to say he could not detect or hear any distortion in playback. He also confirmed via microscope examination the critical wear the dealer told him was present. His stylus tip played in what are reported as nearly ideal conditions required replacement long before 1,000 hours.

I also own a 2M Black MM. This cartridge has the same diamond tip as the Black while it employs an aluminum cantilever instead of boron. The recommended VTF for the 2M is 1.4 to 1.7 grams, and for the Black it is 2.0 to 2.5 grams. I use 1.5 grams on my 2M and 2.3 grams on my Black. I communicated with Poster “5-String” yet I did not confirm his standard VTF for his 2M.

According to JICO, at 400 hours a Shibata-tipped stylus—as found on the Ortofon Cadenza Black and the 2M Black—is worn to the point where distortion at 15kHz is 3% out of spec relative to a new stylus. This is not to say the stylus is critically worn then, just that high frequency distortion has begun and is measurable even if it is not yet audible to most humans.

On when audio distortion is audible to humans at different frequencies, please read this excellent bench test: Blog - How Much Distortion Can We Hear With Music? | Axiom Audio. An allied and perhaps more pertinent issue not addressed is when we finally recognize distortion since it is introduced on a wearing stylus tip so incredibly slowly. But technically at suitable volumes 3% distortion in the 5 to 15kHz range is audible if one can hear at those frequencies.

Using the JICO benchmark with 30% more play hours, stylus wear would be approaching critical levels, as all research shows. That would be ~520 play hours total (400x1.3=520). But let’s not quibble, assume the 2M for Poster “5-String” was worn out only when it reached 650 play hours, keeping in mind that was his educated guess on total play hours. At that point, however, distortion if recognized as such is audible to a trained ear, while Poster “5-String” did not recognize it. Most of us will not recognize it, which is why in the Finish Line article I mentioned that listening for distortion was a poor marker for critical stylus wear. To go further, when you finally recognize distortion permanent groove wear and damage has likely already occurred.

Shure established that a cartridge with 1.5 grams of VTF will last 20% longer than one with double the VTF, 3.0 grams. At 1.0 grams, a stylus tip will last 70% longer compared to a 3.0 gram VTF. See that in Figure 18 here: High Fidelity Phonograph Cartridge - Technical Seminar. Assume the difference in VTF on the 2M relative to the Black extrapolates to a ~15% increase in longer play hours on the 2M, that translates to ~100 fewer play hours (650x0.15=~100) to get to critical wear on the Black. That would be reached at least by ~550 hours, as 650-100=550. We also know that Shure evaluated stylus wear and understood that advanced shaped tips needed to be replaced at about 500 hours because they were worn out.

Back to JICO research and the advent of distortion at 400 hours for line contact stylus tip shapes: adding a 30% and 40% buffer in longer wear is 520 and 560 hours, respectively. The Ortofon Cadenza Black using the referenced 2M example (~650 hours) falls into that 500 hour timeframe with respect to critical wear. As it turns out, all published research points to the same number of play hours to critical wear on advanced stylus tips, ~500 hours.

Maybe for Micro-Ridge stylus tips (JICO says 500 hours to 3% distortion @ 15kHz) where the recommended VTF is 1.0 grams, gets to ~850 hours (500x1.7) in play hours, 1,100 hours if the 30% buffer is factored in. At a VTF of 1.3 grams the Micro-Ridge tip may make it to 700 hours, 900 hours when a 30% buffer is added. While close neither technically makes it to 1,000 hours without the buffer yet no one would appreciate that unless they are willing to have the stylus tip examined by a qualified technician. We are discussing a special case here, with exceptionally light VTF, one that cannot be applied to all tip shapes or all cartridges.

Earlier in this thread I detailed how Ortofon’s advisory evolved on stylus replacement at 500 hours in their cartridge owner’s manuals to 1,000 to 2,000 hours (on well cared for records and good system setup) in FAQ on their website. That stunning transition in advice occurred from the mid-1980s to the late 1990s, coincident with the collapse in new vinyl record sales, and with the advent of higher priced moving coil phono cartridges sought out by and targeting audiophile consumers. Ortofon, as do all high end cartridge manufacturers, uses high quality diamonds for their stylus tips, the same shapes and quality across this timespan.

Absolutely no published research points to or supports 1,000 play hours as a general rule.

Bill is absolutely correct when he states that one of my objectives in writing this article—besides learning for myself—is to encourage cartridge manufacturers to publish technical research on critical stylus life in a manner similar to that done 65 years ago by Harold Weiler as published in his 1954 booklet The Wear and Care of Records and Styli (Climax Pub. Co., New York, pp.56). Add to such a wish list project the impact of VTF and record conditions for top drawer research to accompany top flight prices for moving coil cartridges.

Bottom line: have your stylus tip checked at 500-600 hours by a technical who knows what to look for. For me and in my system that will be the only worthy compromise.

 

Great post! I would be very interested in reading the Shure paper on how 1.5 grams from 3 grams reduce wear by 20%, do you have that one on you?
It should also be noted that, one should not try and lower their VTF below recommended specifications. Having your VTF too low can in effect start wear immediately by having the stylus losing contact and hacking into groove walls even when brand new.

Also, regarding this. If one were to lets say retip their cartridge stylus from an Eliptical with the least amount of contact area to a finer shape like a Line contact or other, would that necessitate increased VTF to track properly? I recall seeing a post or something on that but I dont have a paper to source for it.

 

Leonthepro, A link to that research is in the post above. It may not be a hot link, so copy and paste.

 

I see it now thanks. Just missed it I guess.

 

As an educator, I take umbrage with this statement. Talk about fake news. What BS.

 

I feel your pain. Unfortunately, where I live (Oregon, you check how close to the bottom the state secondary education is), that statement above is painfully close to the truth. The larger issue if you read the Forbes article is the lack of critical thinking when it comes to anything posted on the internet. In that, we see the results all around us.

 

Is this how you were educated? In MA critical thinking is emphasized in our State MCAS testing.

 

I refrained from pointing out that at least I had that, because I dont know if its different in the US or other countries. Source citation and critique in 8th grade (I think thats the right way to say which year it was) and more advanced critical thinking in high school, but it of course depends on what you take and where you go. Those concepts were not foreign for me before having them in school mind you.
However, from my personal experience I do feel like the US population holds opinions in much higher regard than others and facts sometimes even become secondary to that. So I still side with the point being made.